Balancing "RP" and "G"

[The Shaman]

If all you have to do is change a 13 to a 15 and you know the results will be a memorable scene for one of your players, why not do this. If the results unfudged would resut in something mundane and ununqiue and I had an option, I'll go ahead and fudge if the fudge is going to make a specatcular difference and the fudge is minor.

As a player in a game like this, I feel cheated - if my actions don't carry real consequences of failure as well as success, then those successes lose their luster.

Your desire to create a 'memorable scene' takes precedence over my participation in the game - it's neither 'dramatic' nor 'heroic' to know that I really failed but the GM decides to pretend that I succeeded anyway. This is true even if I don't know the results of the die roll - if I suspect the GM of cheating, the sweetness of victory is lost just the same.

 

[LostSoul]

because sometimes people want to play DND or greyhawk or such.

and its not like there are lots of games out there that don't need fudging.

i mean, i have yet to see the perfect game. have you?

Well, Greyhawk is just a setting - you could apply Greyhawk to many different systems. Take Star Wars, for example. I've seen that played under many different systems.

Have I seen the perfect game? Well, D&D is pretty close to perfect for what it is trying to do: the D&D genre with a focus on "the game".

What D&D is not great at is doing different genres (low-magic, for one) or a game where play is about creating stories. It takes some work to get D&D to do that sort of thing. Fudging dice rolls, for one.

To me, trying to create stories with D&D is like trying to play D&D, with all the genre trappings and the peculiarities of the rules, using GURPS or Palladium Fantasy or something like that. Sure, you can do it, but why not just play D&D?

 

[Shemeska]

To the people who fudge the dice or rules for the sake of the "RP":

Why play D&D, and not some other game that you wouldn't have to fudge to get your "RP" fix?

And for those who refuse to deviate from the rules as written for the sake of RP, preferring more of a strict gamist approach, I could ask (though as a bit of a rhetorical question):

Why play D&D, and not the minis game, warhammer40K, or something similar? The questions being asked are fair to rephrase and pose to each varying side.

Round and round we go, and we're not going to change anyone's mind regarding how they approach DnD and what focus they wish to emphasize in their own games. I prefer an RP heavy, immersive setup that might border on callous disregard for the rules as written if they get in the way of character development and drama. Other people might prefer pushing minis in increments of inches, never talking in character, and going from dungeon to dungeon killing things and taking their stuff; a very old school beer and pretzels approach. DnD's roots are there, but it has grown and diverged since that point, and each of us latches upon a specific interpretation of how DnD has evolved in the decades since then.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And for those who refuse to deviate from the rules as written for the sake of RP, preferring more of a strict gamist approach, I could ask:

Why play D&D, and not the minis game, warhammer40K, or something similar?

Likes: Dice, structure, flexibility
Dislikes: Minis, investment of 100s of dollars, excessive strategy

Case solved for this one, anyway.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

And for those who refuse to deviate from the rules as written for the sake of RP, preferring more of a strict gamist approach, I could ask (though as a bit of a rhetorical question):

Why play D&D, and not the minis game, warhammer40K, or something similar?

Because the appeal of D&D is the story which arises from the unpredictable interaction of the results of gameplay and the motivations of the characters in the setting.

I don't refuse to deviate from the rules as written. But I prefer such to be minimised because, even as a DM, I find it more interesting when no-one is in complete control.

 

[DonTadow]

As a player in a game like this, I feel cheated - if my actions don't carry real consequences of failure as well as success, then those successes lose their luster.

Your desire to create a 'memorable scene' takes precedence over my participation in the game - it's neither 'dramatic' nor 'heroic' to know that I really failed but the GM decides to pretend that I succeeded anyway. This is true even if I don't know the results of the die roll - if I suspect the GM of cheating, the sweetness of victory is lost just the same.

The secret is to never let the pcs know that there's a wizard behind the screen. The DM doesnt "play the game" like hte players do. HE runs the game. Thus it is a personal goal I try to reach every session to make me "the dm" disappear as much as possible

 

[Peter Gibbons]

The secret is to never let the pcs know that there's a wizard behind the screen.

In my experience, such DMs are rarely (if ever) as good at concealing their fudginess as they think they are.

 

[DonTadow]

In my experience, such DMs are rarely (if ever) as good at concealing their fudginess as they think they are.

Thus it is a goal I think every DM should strive for every game. Fudginess should not be a tool but a weapon, only used when it is necessary. The reason why most dms dont do it well is because they overuse the weapon to the point where it becomes a tool

 

[Bagpuss]

Characters join in because it is appropriate, not simply because one of the gamers has lost a character and now has a new one.

So what does a player do until it becomes appropriate? Sit in the front room playing on the X-box? Stay at home until he gets a phone call?

 

[Barak]

Geez. So because we won't fudge, (yeah, I'm in that camp. I actually roll most dice in which the result will be immediately noticed (such as attack rolls) in the open) we should play a mini-game?

Let me turn that around. As a player in a game in which the DM will fudge, why worry about character building at all? "Hmm. Yeah, I could take that Dodge feat. But why? If the DM prefers I will not be hit, I won't, no matter my AC, and Vice-versa". And the same would hold true of -any- character building decision that involves numbers. Why put skill points in skills? The DM will fudge. Why take Weapon Specialization? The DM will fudge.

Fudging makes -every- choice players make meaningless, from character creation to game decisions.