Balancing Wizards and Clerics

[Empath Negative]

I was thinking one way to balance Wizards would be to make all wizards specialist wizards and ONLY allow wizards to cast from their specialized school.


In other words Transmuters could only cast Transmutation spells, Enchanters could only cast Enchantment spells and so forth.

Because there's a decided discrepancy between the ability of some schools vs. other schools (Evocation v. Conjuration, for example) it may still require some tweaking.

Arguably this may make Illusion and Transmutation the most powerful schools of all.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

1) Mechanically, it doesn't fix the problem of overpoweredness because, as you noted, Conjuration and Transmutation (and to a lesser extent Illusion) have tons of powerful spells and a good variety of effects whereas schools like Evocation, Divination, and Enchantment can't do much on their own.

2) Logistically, if you restrict wizards to a single school, you remove much of the appeal of being a wizard. Much of the benefit of playing a wizard instead of a sorcerer, beguiler, warmage, dread necromancer, or other focused caster comes from his versatility, both in build (being able to pick a wide variety of spells) and in play (being able to re-prepare spells to fit the situation). If you restrict wizards to one school, suddenly the abovementioned focused casters can be just plain better in their area of expertise without having to bother with spell preparation and such.

3) Flavor-wise, the restriction is too narrow. Summoners can't planar bind creatures very well without dimensional anchor and magic circle against X, which are Abjuration. Pyromancers can't heat metal (Transmutation) or summon fire elementals (Conjuration). And so forth. Because schools are organized either by method (Abjuration protects things, Conjuration moves things, Evocation creates things, Transmutation changes things) or by effect (Divination produces knowledge, Enchantment alters the mind, Illusion fools people, Necromancy deals with the soul) rather than by theme (fire mage, sneaky mage, fighter/mage, etc.), restricting wizards to certain schools will prevent many archetypes from being built.


A better solution to the problem addresses the spell list before anything else. Banning or altering problem spells, re-categorizing spells to more appropriate and more balanced schools ("balanced" in the sense of having roughly the same number of spells, not necessarily power level), and ensuring that popular themes can be represented is a good first step. Then you can talk about limiting the wizard to 1-3 primary schools, hopefully with an option to grab other thematically-appropriate spells from other schools, and have it actually work out well.

 

[xigbar]

If you did that, players would either go with the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage, or play Illusionist for Shadowy Evocation/Conjuration, Conjuration to summon things with spell like abilites, or Transmuters to turn in to things with spell like abilites.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

What is the motivation to do this?

And what does this have to do with Clerics?

...If this was the game world you wanted to run, remove Wizard and Sorcerer as classes, replace with Warmage, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer as the Arcane casting classes.

 

[scott2978]

Having recently completed a 3.5 campaign that ran from level 1 to level 22 using RAW + "Complete" series and Spell Compendium, I can tell you that there really are no balance issues that you cannot overcome with good DM'ing.

If spellcasters seem overpowered in your campaign, then take a step back and ask yourself "What is really causing the issue?"

• Is it really the Rules As Written, or does it actually stem from a particular player's style?
• Do your villains have access to the same classes as your PC's?
• Do you have more than 4 PC's in the group?
• Are there things inherent to your chosen campaign setting that are favorable to spellcasters?
• Are you tossing out the rules that are inconvenient but meant to balance spellcasters, like use of material components or xp costs?
• Do the fighters in your campaign have the proper level of gear?

There are probably a lot more questions you could ask, but you get the point. If the game feels unbalanced, it's probably not just your imagination. But, I can tell you that in my campaign, the wizard feared melee enemies at every level, right up to 22. If your magic using PC's get too cocky, then try some of these ideas:

A mage hating, feat machine fighter. There are a bunch of "mage killer" type feats in the splat books. Give him a magic item that grants Spell Resistance, or at higher levels, surrounds him in an Antimagic Field. If you fear the PC's having such an item, just make it a charged item that has limited uses left.

Use appropriate monsters for the PC power level. Devils in particular make great anti-wizard monsters with their high spell resistance and useful spell like abilities such as True Seeing. For added kick, give them feats from The Book of Vile Darkness.

I could go on but I'm not really sure what would be helpful to you. If you think you have narrowed down the possible issues, post a response asking for advice. People around here seem very willing to be helpful.

Scott

 

[Dandu]

A mage hating, feat machine fighter. There are a bunch of "mage killer" type feats in the splat books. Give him a magic item that grants Spell Resistance, or at higher levels, surrounds him in an Antimagic Field. If you fear the PC's having such an item, just make it a charged item that has limited uses left.

These tactics are commonly suggested, but imperfect.

You'll have to make your own spell resistance items, as the ones you can find in the DMG are vastly overpriced. You won't get SR 18 until you are a high level character, at which point any level appropriate caster you face simply laughs in your face.

And while AMF sounds like a great idea, it also neutralizes your ability to do things like fly. It also prevents you from having magical gear. The problems here should be evident. In essence, the Mage Slayer + AMF tactic only works if you are within 10 feet of the spellcaster you are trying to kill. Getting within 10 feet, however, tends to be a little tricky.

 

[scott2978]

These tactics are commonly suggested, but imperfect.

You'll have to make your own spell resistance items, as the ones you can find in the DMG are vastly overpriced. You won't get SR 18 until you are a high level character, at which point any level appropriate caster you face simply laughs in your face.

And while AMF sounds like a great idea, it also neutralizes your ability to do things like fly. It also prevents you from having magical gear. The problems here should be evident. In essence, the Mage Slayer + AMF tactic only works if you are within 10 feet of the spellcaster you are trying to kill. Getting within 10 feet, however, tends to be a little tricky.

If you think about that, getting to within 10' of the wizard is just about all you need to do. His unarmored, probably unarmed self cannot withstand your feat powered (and thus inherently non magical) wizard slicing masterwork greatsword. A 15th level fighter NPC should easily one-shot a 15th level wizard PC while within an AMF.

At low level, your wizard PC is not really overpowering, and so at low level you don't really need very much spell resistance. I also disagree with the idea that spell resistance items are too expensive. Salve of Spell Resistance costs 1350gp and grants SR17 for several minutes. It's a 5th level item. A 5th level NPC can have up to 4,300gp worth of gear so this is no problem at all. That makes a 5th level PC spellcaster have a 50% chance of his spells being ignored.

At mid level (say 10), an enemy Cleric can cast Spell Resistance on a melee fighter, giving him SR22 for 10 minutes. The 10th level PC wizard must roll a 12 or higher to overcome it, and this one has the benefits of A) Being totally free for the NPC and B) Impossible for the PC's to loot after the battle. Sure, your PC wizard can fly around and teleport, but the feat machine fighter has a pretty tough Will save (around +8 with proper gear which gives him a 40% chance of saving against Will spells) and near unbeatable Fort save. Plus he has plenty of healing potions.

At high level things change a bit. The dynamics of high level play are very fluid, and by this time pretty much anything goes. Disjunction. 'nuff said.

Maybe I'm not making a good case here, but I'm telling you it can be done. It just takes some preparation by the DM to be ready for things, and a very good knowledge of the rules.

Also, re-reading the last post here, it appears maybe some people reading this are thinking that the "overpowered" characters are actually the NPC's and not the Player Characters. That kind of problem is easily remedied by carefully choosing the NPC wizard's spells.

Cheers,

Scott

 

[xigbar]

If you think about that, getting to within 10' of the wizard is just about all you need to do. His unarmored, probably unarmed self cannot withstand your feat powered (and thus inherently non magical) wizard slicing masterwork greatsword. A 15th level fighter NPC should easily one-shot a 15th level wizard PC while within an AMF.

At low level, your wizard PC is not really overpowering, and so at low level you don't really need very much spell resistance. I also disagree with the idea that spell resistance items are too expensive. Salve of Spell Resistance costs 1350gp and grants SR17 for several minutes. It's a 5th level item. A 5th level NPC can have up to 4,300gp worth of gear so this is no problem at all. That makes a 5th level PC spellcaster have a 50% chance of his spells being ignored.

At mid level (say 10), an enemy Cleric can cast Spell Resistance on a melee fighter, giving him SR22 for 10 minutes. The 10th level PC wizard must roll a 12 or higher to overcome it, and this one has the benefits of A) Being totally free for the NPC and B) Impossible for the PC's to loot after the battle. Sure, your PC wizard can fly around and teleport, but the feat machine fighter has a pretty tough Will save (around +8 with proper gear which gives him a 40% chance of saving against Will spells) and near unbeatable Fort save. Plus he has plenty of healing potions.

At high level things change a bit. The dynamics of high level play are very fluid, and by this time pretty much anything goes. Disjunction. 'nuff said.

Maybe I'm not making a good case here, but I'm telling you it can be done. It just takes some preparation by the DM to be ready for things, and a very good knowledge of the rules.

Also, re-reading the last post here, it appears maybe some people reading this are thinking that the "overpowered" characters are actually the NPC's and not the Player Characters. That kind of problem is easily remedied by carefully choosing the NPC wizard's spells.

Cheers,

Scott

Well, first of all, any serious comparison of a caster vs. a melee class goes step by step. At 1st level, A wizard can have Abrupt Jaunt. Most of mine do. So, to be fair, I don;t have many ways of keeping you more than 10ft. away, but, when I port a hop skip and a jump away, it doesn't matter. I then proceed to use whatever spell is most likely to shut you down. At the next few levels of spells, I'm still getting new abilities that a fighter has to get around, such as invisibility, and Alter Self/Polymorph forms with inherent advantages over my opponent. I'll start getting more large scale battle field control spell to slow your progress to getting to me. While your fight has to look past it's own class features to find ways to effect me, I simply see a higher AC. Once teleportation spells come in place, I'm guaranteed to get a chance to buff before hand. Contingency can be used to avoid AMF. I just use spells that don't target spell resistance, or summon something to fight for me.

 

[Dandu]

If you think about that, getting to within 10' of the wizard is just about all you need to do. His unarmored, probably unarmed self cannot withstand your feat powered (and thus inherently non magical) wizard slicing masterwork greatsword. A 15th level fighter NPC should easily one-shot a 15th level wizard PC while within an AMF.

I have expressed agreement with this, but I disagree on the ease to which it is done.

At low level, your wizard PC is not really overpowering, and so at low level you don't really need very much spell resistance. I also disagree with the idea that spell resistance items are too expensive. Salve of Spell Resistance costs 1350gp and grants SR17 for several minutes. It's a 5th level item. A 5th level NPC can have up to 4,300gp worth of gear so this is no problem at all. That makes a 5th level PC spellcaster have a 50% chance of his spells being ignored.

Where is this from? I am more familiar with the SR items in the DMG/SRD, which are rather expensive.

Even so, you do realize that SR does not apply to Conjurations? While most wizards probably don't specialize in Conjurations, and optimized one likely will.

At mid level (say 10), an enemy Cleric can cast Spell Resistance on a melee fighter, giving him SR22 for 10 minutes. The 10th level PC wizard must roll a 12 or higher to overcome it, and this one has the benefits of A) Being totally free for the NPC and B) Impossible for the PC's to loot after the battle. Sure, your PC wizard can fly around and teleport, but the feat machine fighter has a pretty tough Will save (around +8 with proper gear which gives him a 40% chance of saving against Will spells) and near unbeatable Fort save. Plus he has plenty of healing potions.

The feat machine can also be walled off via Wall of Force and isolated from the battle until his friends are taken care of.

Maybe I'm not making a good case here, but I'm telling you it can be done. It just takes some preparation by the DM to be ready for things, and a very good knowledge of the rules.

I don't doubt it can be done, but your approach strikes me as simplistic.

 

[scott2978]

Well, first of all, any serious comparison of a caster vs. a melee class goes step by step. At 1st level, A wizard can have Abrupt Jaunt. Most of mine do. So, to be fair, I don;t have many ways of keeping you more than 10ft. away, but, when I port a hop skip and a jump away, it doesn't matter. I then proceed to use whatever spell is most likely to shut you down. At the next few levels of spells, I'm still getting new abilities that a fighter has to get around, such as invisibility, and Alter Self/Polymorph forms with inherent advantages over my opponent. I'll start getting more large scale battle field control spell to slow your progress to getting to me. While your fight has to look past it's own class features to find ways to effect me, I simply see a higher AC. Once teleportation spells come in place, I'm guaranteed to get a chance to buff before hand. Contingency can be used to avoid AMF. I just use spells that don't target spell resistance, or summon something to fight for me.

I think you may be missing the point. This discussion is about player character wizards and clerics being overpowered inherently by RAW. While I do not dispute anything you say, what you say is mostly not important. If the PC wizard uses the tactics you describe, he will certainly get away from the fighter, but in doing so he loses the fight. If the PC wizard never engages the fighter successfully, he will stay at his current level forever, which I'm sure the NPC fighter, who was made to be defeated in the first place, is just fine with

Besides, I only used a fighter as one example of the literally limitless options open to a DM to deal with a seemingly overpowered PC wizard.

I have expressed agreement with this, but I disagree on the ease to which it is done.

Again, it is not the job of the OP to get that fighter into melee. It is the job of the PC wizard to defeat him! It does not matter if the wizard can teleport, fly, expeditiously retreat, etc. If he doesn't face and defeat the fighter, then the wizard loses and gains no xp. Perhaps then in that case the NPC fighter actually gains xp for defeating the wizard!

Where is this from? I am more familiar with the SR items in the DMG/SRD, which are rather expensive.

The Magic Item Compendium

Even so, you do realize that SR does not apply to Conjurations? While most wizards probably don't specialize in Conjurations, and optimized one likely will.

Meh. So the wizard casts a conjuration. All he's going to do with it is A) acid spells which are easily resisted with readily available low level magic or B) cast a summon spell which takes a full round during which the wizard cannot even move! Mage-slaying fighter charges FTW.

The feat machine can also be walled off via Wall of Force and isolated from the battle until his friends are taken care of.

This is a fantastic idea that, should a PC wizard come to think of it, should be well rewarded by allowing it to work.

I've only used the fighter as one example. If this was my campaign, I would have an entire book of ideas lined up to deal with the PC wizard to prevent him from becomming overpowered. Everything from the rarity of his spell components to devils attempting to lure him into a bargain for his well-proven services. You can also use terrain, weather and the circumstances of the engagements to limit PC wizards.

• Does the fight happen within an area known to have a teleportation trap nearby?
• Does the fight happen within a cramped dungeon corridor?
• Are there more than 1 of these fighters after the PC?
• Is the fighter the son of a Lawful Good noble who would be enraged by the defeat of his only son by "lawbreaking adventurers"?
• Is the fight in a thick forest or jungle, limiting visibility?
• Is the fight inside a volcano? Under water? In a demiplane with different rules of how magic functions?
• Is the fighter ethereal? Invisible? An illusion? A doppleganger of a close friend?

These and thousands upon thousands of other ideas should be more than enough to keep a PC wizard in check. Lets not get off the topic of a PC wizard being overpowered by RAW. I'm sure it would be a fascinating debate about the fighter and the wizard, but that's really not the point here.


Scott