TheAuldGrump said:
Speaking of the 1600s I picked up a new novel yesterday that may prove interesting.
Auriel Rising
Banking in Medieval Societies
- Thread starter Aulayan
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Speaking of the 1600s I picked up a new novel yesterday that may prove interesting.
Auriel Rising
Turjan
Explorer
After the 11. century, when coins got out of fashion in northern European far trade, it was not uncommon for wealthy merchants to carry around heavy chunks of metal; at least that's what the term 'one pound Sterling Silver' implies. As this was heavy, merchants in Cologne invented the "Mark", which was half a pound. The term comes from the mark that was made on the pound piece for cutting it into halves.Henry Hankovich said:
Of course, the old Carolingian coin system (from around 755) with one pound silver = 20 shillings ('solidi') = 240 pennies ('denares') was principally existent till the end of the Middle Ages (in England till 1971
), but it broke down shortly after 1100. England introduced the 'easterling', where 'Sterling' is derived from, in 1180.TrycadeTycoombant
First Post
Perhaps you could treat it as somewhat of an impediment to the players. It is very hard to keep track of exactly how much. Maybe two players could have conflicting ideas on if some has been stolen. Also in battle it could spill after the impact of a spiked warhammer and rain gold all over the bloody battlefield. The players would really enjoy spending hours sorting orc brains from their platium pieces!
Once it is a problem for them, they will find a way to solve it and have fun doing it. The dragon bank idea was a good one and should be presented as an option of rarity that they hear about. Getting the approval of a dragon could be an adventure in itself.
Just my two coppers!
Once it is a problem for them, they will find a way to solve it and have fun doing it. The dragon bank idea was a good one and should be presented as an option of rarity that they hear about. Getting the approval of a dragon could be an adventure in itself.
Just my two coppers!
Medieval banking began in the 14th century in Italy with a bank opened by the Franciscan order. They were the first non-Jews to charge interest legally in Europe because of a complex new theological doctrine they developed (one we take for granted today).
Before the Franciscans, the church believed, based on the doctrines of Aristotle, that all things had fixed objective value. Not only was it wrong to charge interest on something, it was also wrong to raise a price when the good became scarce or to pay less than usual when a good was overly abundant. While it was okay for merchants to charge more for items to cover transportation or guarding costs, it was viewed as dishonest and sinful prices to change beyond that limited range.
Thus, a bushel of grain, in the views of the church, was always worth the same amount of gold, irrespective of how much grain and gold there were in the world because the value of grain and gold were fixed and natural arising from the objects themselves. For this reason, money lending was out of the question because an amount of money now should always be of equal value to the value of the same amount of money at any other point in time.
The Franciscans changed all that. They explained that value was subjective, not objective -- that the value of an object was dependent on the purchaser and vendor and did not inhere in the object itself.
And so, they were permitted to open a bank that charged interest.
My understanding of how Jewish banking went is a little shakier but I believe it started in Western Europe sometime between the Carolingians and the Ottonians in the 9th or 10th century.
Sorry I can't provide more specific information about how individual lending institutions worked either before or after the 14th century but hopefully some of the above data is useful.
Before the Franciscans, the church believed, based on the doctrines of Aristotle, that all things had fixed objective value. Not only was it wrong to charge interest on something, it was also wrong to raise a price when the good became scarce or to pay less than usual when a good was overly abundant. While it was okay for merchants to charge more for items to cover transportation or guarding costs, it was viewed as dishonest and sinful prices to change beyond that limited range.
Thus, a bushel of grain, in the views of the church, was always worth the same amount of gold, irrespective of how much grain and gold there were in the world because the value of grain and gold were fixed and natural arising from the objects themselves. For this reason, money lending was out of the question because an amount of money now should always be of equal value to the value of the same amount of money at any other point in time.
The Franciscans changed all that. They explained that value was subjective, not objective -- that the value of an object was dependent on the purchaser and vendor and did not inhere in the object itself.
And so, they were permitted to open a bank that charged interest.
My understanding of how Jewish banking went is a little shakier but I believe it started in Western Europe sometime between the Carolingians and the Ottonians in the 9th or 10th century.
Sorry I can't provide more specific information about how individual lending institutions worked either before or after the 14th century but hopefully some of the above data is useful.
Wombat
First Post
Part of the earlier injunction against charging interest in the Middle Ages came from the notion that the merchant (or banker or lender or whathaveyou) was essentially charging someone else for time. As said merchant had not created time (only God created time), then how could he possibly charge for it? Wouldn't it be immoral to charge for something you did not create?
One way around this was the old "cartload of goods" approach. A loan deal would be struck and the person taking out the loan would "loan" a ficticious wagon filled with merchadize to the lender. At the end of the loan period, the person taking the loan would buy this ficticious cart back, thus providing the lender with his interest.
It should also be noted that storing your coins with an early bank did not earn you interest -- indeed, you paid the bank to watch your coinage, so essentially your coin horde decreased each month (or quarter or year).
A lot of early proto-banking was in place by the time of the great trade fairs of the 12th and 13th century. Merchants would sell letters of credit back and forth, therefor not being required to actually bring cash with them or equivalent good. The next time a merchant with this letter of credit was near the house of the issuing family, the letter could be exchanged for cash (assuming they actually had it on hand -- speculation was rampant and therefore sometimes cash was in short supply). Letters of credit could also be exchanged to third parties, usually at a discount. And of course with little in the way of truly standardized coinage, many provisions were made to make exchanges at the most favourable rate possible (i.e. a soldus [silver coin] from one town might be significantly lighter than a soldus from another).
Ah yes, medival economics -- now even MORE confusing!
One way around this was the old "cartload of goods" approach. A loan deal would be struck and the person taking out the loan would "loan" a ficticious wagon filled with merchadize to the lender. At the end of the loan period, the person taking the loan would buy this ficticious cart back, thus providing the lender with his interest.
It should also be noted that storing your coins with an early bank did not earn you interest -- indeed, you paid the bank to watch your coinage, so essentially your coin horde decreased each month (or quarter or year).
A lot of early proto-banking was in place by the time of the great trade fairs of the 12th and 13th century. Merchants would sell letters of credit back and forth, therefor not being required to actually bring cash with them or equivalent good. The next time a merchant with this letter of credit was near the house of the issuing family, the letter could be exchanged for cash (assuming they actually had it on hand -- speculation was rampant and therefore sometimes cash was in short supply). Letters of credit could also be exchanged to third parties, usually at a discount. And of course with little in the way of truly standardized coinage, many provisions were made to make exchanges at the most favourable rate possible (i.e. a soldus [silver coin] from one town might be significantly lighter than a soldus from another).
Ah yes, medival economics -- now even MORE confusing!
Lawrence of Arabica
First Post
In Northern Italy, at least, the strictures against usury were sometimes flouted. One technique was to write the promissary note for a larger amount than was actually loaned. Another was to require payment in a different currency than was loaned, with an exchange rate favorable to the loaner.
Committed Hero
Hero
fusangite said:
The Templars were issuing rudimentary letters of credit before this, too.
It is very good.Crothian said:
Here is a thread on the subject of banking that has some other links inside it:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=96867&highlight=banking
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=96867&highlight=banking
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