Barbarian Handbook

[DDogwood]

Re: Monk/Barbarian - it's easy with the Martial Artist archetype from UC, which removes the alignment requirement from the Monk. Coincidentally, it also grants immunity to fatigue at level 5, so it works nicely with Barbarian.

Re: Titan Mauler - this archetype is less horrible for a small Barbarian, like a Gnome or Halfling. Far from optimal, obviously, but if you really want to play a joke race/class combo this makes it significantly less terrible.

 

[Gorgoroth]

linky

Allnight Herb is described here. It's basically 8 hours worth of rage hopping for 75gp (with some negatives). I can take care of my exhaustion from Heart of the Fields.

The dm I am playing with is quite savvy to power gamer stuff and I want to have as many ways as possible to rage hop, possibly mixing and matching some, such as the being a relapsed drug addict on Allnight (when it's available), and when it isn't, settle for quaffing Invigorate potions. Heck, with Roused Anger and 1 level of archaologist bard, I could probably get hopping by level 3, without any potions necessary.

Now while Rousing Anger would be wasted at level 17 (I doubt we will get that far...but who knows), but I think a single rage power, when I get a new one every two levels and can grab more with feats, is a better deal than losing 3 or 4 levels getting Horizon Walker / Desert, which is a dubious prospect considering there are no deserts to speak of in our geographical viscinity. Then again, rage hopping is only good once you can get a bunch of good rage powers that are 1/rage.

As a level 2 barbarian + 1 bard, I could cast Invigorate on myself twice per day and it should last long enough. I wouldn't actually be able to do anything with it, so I'll probably wait till level 5 so I have 4 rage powers total : Superstition, Roused Anger, + 2 others that grant powers. So I only really need to hop probably once per combat, if the other two rage powers are 1/rage style. The 1 level of bard would be great for the +2 to reflex and will saves, too, which this guide recommends, despite the loss of BAB.

We have a lame oracle in our group already Another option to rage hop in a non-DM-dependent on allowing build options that doesn't fit our campaign (or Allnight which will not be available all the time). Another thing I was thinking of is a one level dip into cleric for travel domain and restoration subdomain, which has a nifty power to get rid of your fatigued condition. It doesn't state what type of action it is, so I assume it's a free action. (though that's debatable too, a lot of similar cleric domain powers are standard actions).

I love the extra 10 speed too. A little bit of healing after the fight is always useful as well. I think being able to hop 4 times a day could be enough at early levels. (like by 3rd), when I could have two rage powers.

It would be good to get some clarification if the Restoration domain Restorative Touch (Su) power is indeed a free or a standard action. Separatist archetype would allow both those useful domains, but I wonder what better domains there may be than Travel for a barbarian. (always on 10 speed...love it)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Mmmm...chalky paste...sounds yummy. I guess that would do the trick, though the skill penalty is pretty hefty.

HW is a 3 level dip for rage hopping, you get Terrain Dominance (desert) at 3. So ECL 9, exact same level Lame Oracle 1 would kick in (which makes HW the inferior path, IMO).

In 3E at least, a Su is a standard action unless said otherwise. So I'm pretty sure Restorative Touch is a standard. Still a good domain power.

Other domains: Tactics (War) subdomain lets you or an ally roll twice for initiative and take the higher roll 3 + wis times per day.... I dunno, Travel's pretty hard to top.

Anyway...Allnight herbs, Invigorate potions, and yeah I guess even Roused Anger are all ways to hop at low levels. But like you said, it's going to take a few levels to get a bunch of solid 1/rage powers anyway. And while Cleric 1 or Bard 1 and Martial Artist Monk 5 and probably some other things will facillitate rage hopping...ultimately they're all inferior to just dipping Oracle at 9... I'd just go barb 8, pick up some potions and herbs along the way whenever you can and horde them (how long can the herb last before going bad?), and just wait for the oracle dip. Much better plan in the long run. And if you're not playing past the early levels, even in the short run...there aren't many good low level 1/rage powers anyway, I'd probably just not bother with rage hopping in that sort of game.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

On topic of the guide itself, I want to say something positive about the Wild Rager, which aside from being one of the dumbest designed things ever, is as the OP says, an awful archetype for a Barbarian:

It can be amazing for someone just dipping Barbarian! Everything that makes it idiotic to a full Barb works to the favor of a dipper. The DC is based on barb level and cha modifier. With only 1 or 2 levels and a negative charisma score, this can easily be like a DC 8-9 will save. In other words, you only fail on a 1 (but as with all saves, you can purposely fail). This means you can use it strategically in situations where confused would just mean "pound my enemies into paste" anyway for some free rounds of rage, then will save out of it before it actually screws you over. That's a great way to massively extend your puny 4 + con mod rounds of rage as a dipper!

 

[Gorgoroth]

how so?

"ultimately they're all inferior to just dipping Oracle at 9"

Could you explain to me the finer points of how this works? I thought you have to grab 6 levels of Lame Oracle for it to work.

tradeoff as I see it:
Lame Oracle :
-1 Bab
-1 barb level
-10 Speed
-hops at level 9
Horizon Walker:
-1 feat
-6 skill points
-1 barb level
-no spells or funky oracle benefits
-1 rage power, but hops at level 7

Ok let's assume the feat and the loss of Bab is a wash (grab weapon focus)
The loss of one useful rage power is also nearly equivalent to a feat (esp if you plan on taking feats to grant more rage powers to begin with).

Ultimately it comes down to the speed issue, which means with a one level lame oracle, perhaps grabbing heavy armor prof is a good deal after all. you'll be the same speed as a fighter with a few armor spec benefits.

I'd rather use give up one rage power (Roused Anger) and dip one level into horizon walker at ecl 7 (ok, wasting one feat for Endurance, and 6 skill points), to keep my 10 speed and full Bab get hopping 2 levels earlier. hmm, it is tricky though.

Basically, I just don't want to be a Lame Oracle, although it would be incredibly easy story wise to be cursed by the same curse that affected my teammate, over months of adventuring together. arrrrgh! going into a nerd-rage thinking about which one I prefer : haha.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Your effective Oracle level for curse benefits adds half of your non-Oracle levels (cause otherwise holy crap would a small oracle dip suck!). So a Barb 8 / Oracle 1 counts as a level 5 Oracle for his curse (8/2 +1).

And if speed is an issue and you had no particular preferences for a mystery, you can just take Metal and grab the +10 ft speed revelation it offers to counteract your curse.

And again, you're basically going to spend most of your time not in rage fatigued with the Roused Anger trick, which IMO is a pretty sucky drawback.

 

[Systole]

I really appreciate all the discussion that's been going on in here. I may have the time to update some things this weekend. Been very busy.

 

[Gorgoroth]

ah

ok, I see now. Thanks for explaining the rules bit about the Lame Oracle, and I agree, it's probably the right thing to do. (besides crush my enemies and hear the lamentations of their women). The Metal option is wizard! to keep my speed. yeah yeah.

Are there any full plates that let you keep your 40 speed as a barbarian while still raging and everything? Or is there a limit on what rages you can pull in heavy armor. I'm a bit fuzzy on the movement rules in pathfinder (I came from 4e before, and it's been many years since I played any d20 systems)

Couple more questions to the forums:

As an invulnerable rager archetype, it is possible to "multi-class" into another archetype, if I understand it correctly. What is a complimentary archetype? as far as I can tell, Totem Warrior, Urban Barbarian, Hurler, Drunken Brute, Sea Reaver, True Primitive and Urban Barbarian seem to the be only ones which wouldn't conflict in terms of having the class features swapped out. What Totem Warrior options would fit well? I like the idea of getting "Pounce" so I can charge and full attack, but the animal totem powers are kind of, blah, to me. Pounce benefits TWF builds more, so at level 10 or so I'm considering grabbing a double ax and twf feat. (my dex is 16). I like the idea of learning to multi weapon as Conan did in some of the movies, as he got to be better with weapons generally. It would also depend on what magic weapons we find, for instance if I get my hands on one of those bastard swords that counts as a light weapon, bam, dual wield bastard swords for sure.

I took improved sunder, but I haven't used it once yet so I'm considering asking my DM to change it to Improve Trip or something else. Maybe Dodge? Or toughness. Our oracle tells me having more HP benefits our life link more (not sure why, I'm a bit fuzzy on that too). But the extra 1 AC from Dodge could some in handy, even with high DR from invulnerable rager. My plan is to wear full plate eventually, be more tanky. If we ever make it to level 16, maybe grab a second level of Lame Oracle to get my speed back up to 40. This is because it doesn't seem to make any sense to have an odd number of barbarian levels.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Barb Fast Movement requires medium or lighter armor, so any mithral full plate would work. But you'd need heavy armor proficiency (feat or multiclass with Fighter, Cavalier, or Paladin) in order to not take the massive armor check penalty on your attack roll. In PF, mithral makes armor lighter, but you still need to be proficient with its original weight category.

The only Totems I like are Spirit and Animal. Latter is nice for pounce at 10 and the natural armor is decent, too. The lesser one for claws is pretty sucky, though. Don't go TWF, pounce is still decent for 2H weapons, not as helpful as for TWF, but far from worthless.
Spirit is cool if you have decent cha due to a demoralizer build. The concealment from non-adjacent attacks is awesome for screwing with big monsters.
A lot of people like Dragon, but it's SOOOO costly and IMO the first two totem powers suck mightily. Only the greater dragon totem for flight is any good, and I think you're better off just getting winged boots, which you can easily afford by then. So yeah, I do not recommend dragon totem.

Don't take Sunder, if you don't want to destroy treasure, it's only a minor debuff that you wasted a bunch of attacks you could've been doing hp damage to achieve. Along with the 3E issue of "a lot of monsters don't use items." Trip is likely out of reach, ou need int 13 and combat expertise. Dodge is decent, note it buffs CMD also. Toughness certainly doesn't suck, but it's definitely less exciting...
Raging Vitality is basically a feat tax so rage won't inevitably auto kill you somewhere down the line because Paizo decided to regress on the progress of 3.0-->3.5 *sigh*, you may want that.
If it's an option, I think Cornugon Smash is the next best barb feat you can take after Power Attack (and it requires PA anyway). Look that one up on d20pfsrd.

I have no idea why a 2nd level of Lame Oracle would boost your speed, you lost me there.

Far as staying in Barb...Invulnerable Rager's DR is IMO the only reason to really stay past level12! I mean, what else do you really get? All the Rage Powers after that point (Come and Get Me) are garbage... Will boost at 14 is ok, maybe stick around just for that... The capstone at 20 is pathetic compared to almost every other capstone, and you can get fatigue immunity LONG before Tireless Rage. And...that's it, no other barb class features at all. Other than improving DR for Invulnerable Rager, seems kinda silly to stay in Barb after that.

EDIT: Systole, when you get to Totems, you may want to address this unanswered issue: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...ypeFromAPGAllowABarbarianToTakeMultipleTotems

 

[Gorgoroth]

thanks for the input!

I like the beast totem stuff because I can't be disarmed and having it already would have saved a lot of grief when I didn't have access to my greataxe while in town (during a goblin attack no less). We had to check our weapons a the gates.

The second level of oracle was at 16, when it negates speed penalty in heavy armor. I didn't remember the mithral full place counts as medium anyway, but regardless of that, my speed is still reduced by 10 by wearing medium armor, is it not? So by taking lame oracle 2, at level 18, I would get 10 speed back from the medium armor speed penalty, right? And the Bab is +1 at that level

I'm curious, why does Less Beast totem suck? I can still use a Greatsword and use the offhand claw for another attack, can't I? Might have to grab Quickdraw to shift your hand around, but I'm not sure how the rules work for this totem power. It says you gain two claw attacks at your full Bab while raging. Do you need to have both hands free in order to use the second claw attack? Even still, charge in with greatsword, chop, drop, claw. Saves a feat, but costs in amulets of mighty striking. Benefits such as Elemental Rage and so on are good. At level 10 with greater beast totem, the damage with your claws is equivalent to a doubleaxe with greater weapon focus, two weapon fighting, and double slice. That's 5 feats saved. Not too bad! Even better, with your pounce full attack, you avoid -2 on all your subsequent iterative attacks with your greatsword too. Also, with improved natural attack and greater beast totem, the damage with your claws is the same as a greatsword, but with an extra attack. Not bad!

I like claw attacks ala wolverine as a backup weapon in case I'm in jail or lose my weapon or it gets broken during combat, but also to avoid the TWF feat tree.

Reason I took Improved Sunder was so I could debuff enemy AC or damage during my first charge. I can fix the broken items after combat with a Mending spell, can't I? Granted, we're almost level 3 and I haven't used sunder once, so I am kind of coming over to this. BUT, when fighting that big bad d00d, sundering his wand or his armor, esp with Spell Sunder and the superstition / witch hunter powers I plan on taking to become a nuisance to magic users.

Now my main question is whether Metal oracle mystery at level 9 or weapon focus in claws with Battle. I'm leaning towards Metal for the speed, which is great with pounce.