Barbarian Handbook

[StreamOfTheSky]

Claws are nice if the DM likes to mess with you while you have no weapons/any equipment, definitely. If he does that a lot, you're much better off just being a spellcaster, though (Sorcerer, if he goes so far as to restrict access to component pouch, holy symbol (is taking a cleric's holy symbol away other than a prisoner scenario EVER justifiable?), spellbook, etc...).

Ok, you need Oracle level 10 for no speed reduction in armor (you still need medium or lighter armor for Barb's Fast Movement, though). You were saying level 16 (Barb 14/Oracle 2), that'd only be Oracle level 9. Doing Barb 16/Oracle 2 would get you the level 10 effective Oracle level, yes. Or you could just do Barb 18/Oracle 1...it's only 1 level later...

No, if you use a weapon with that hand, you canno also make claw attacks with that hand the same round. Which is why bites, gores, tail slaps, etc... are all more useful natural weapons than claws. Also, if you use a manufactured weapon, any natural weapons automatically become secondary natural attacks, and thus have -5 to hit and only add half str to damage. They are a nice backup weapon to have, though, I guess lesser totem doesn't suck, it's just not going to be useful most of the time.

If you're going the Witch Hunter/Spell Sunder route, sunder might be good, I haven't looked into that rage power much.

I think Waves (Water Sight), Time (Temporal Celerity + UMD as a class skill), Battle (War Sight + Enlarge person is an Oracle spell = you can use wand of enlarge person!), and Metal (the +10 speed one...) are the most useful mysteries and revelations for a Barbarian dipper. Or just do a Dual-Cursed Oracle with just about any mystery and take Misfortune, which is just a crazy awesome revelation for debuffing AND buffing (they take the reroll, not the worst of the 2, so by all means use it on yourself and allies when you roll 1's!)

 

[Gorgoroth]

lots of goodies

ok, I have a lot to think about.

The fiend totem grants a gore attack, but obviously doesn't work with pounce (and as a good-aligned character, doesn't mesh anyway). Are there any other classes that grant primary natural attacks? Since I'm definitely going the pounce route, I'd like to take advantage of the claws, even if I do end up using it as a secondary attack after my greataxe / greatsword main attack. It's a bit better than improved two weapon fighting (on its own), as instead of -7 to hit it's only -5. I'd like like to know if I can remove my hand from holding my two handed weapon, so I can use my claw in the same round, via Quickdraw. I made a synthesist summoner one time with 5 natural attacks and he was chopping through earth giants like butter (not playing that again since it's too OP and would ruin the fun for the rest of the party). But adding more attacks at full Bab showed me how powerful it can be.

By level 11, if I use only claws, it would be 3d6 damage + str mod + power attack 1x per hit. The power attack bonus would drop since they're 1x str mod attack, but an extra attack at full Bab is still great. (esp since I'll get to use it every round with Pounce). the 2d6 comes from imp natural attack, greater beast totem, and elemental rage.

I really do like the idea of smashing/sundering away magic with my sword though. Sweet!

Are there ways to boost power attack's benefit towards TWF or natural weapons? Like fighter archetypes or whatever

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You CAN'T use claws and the greatsword/axe together. Period. Unless you multiclass with Alchemist and grow a pair of vestigial arms... But no, you can't remove your hand and claw, etc... If you use a weapon in that hand, you can't use a claw attack with that hand that round.

Synthesist: Was he very high level? Synthesist is held to the same max # of natural attacks limit as an eidolon...

Only way I know of to increase the PA bonus for natural weapons is to only make a single attack with your only natural weapon (say you took animal fury and had a bite attack). In those cases, it gets 1.5x str bonus to damage and 3-for-1 on PA. As soon as you add any other attacks to your routine at all (whether other natural attacks, or manufactured ones which would in turn make your bite a 2ndary natural attack), you lose that.

EDIT: If you just really want a natural weapon user, you might be better off just being a Vivvisectionist Alchemist with the Feral Mutagen discovery and dipping barbarian. You wouldn't get pounce doing that, but you could have wings and such instead.

 

[Gorgoroth]

I love being a barbarian though

Just wanted to say : 2 Claw attacks are good, except for when you're fighting enemies with Barkskin (thorns!). So I switched back to my axe for this. We turned level 3 and it's been good to be versatile, e.g. I dropped my axe on a crit fumble and I didn't need to waste any actions to keep fighting. Sometimes you need to hit once really badly, for not as much damage, to kill the enemy now. Big Axe can be overkill, so having more damage granularity is a good thing.

 

[Gorgoroth]

natural attacks optimization

are there any threads specifically related to barbarians optimizing claw attacks? I suppose it's generic enough, but with the monster feats MultiAttack (secondary natural attacks at -2, such as the bite attack from one of the rage powers) and Improved Natural Attacks, by level 10 I think you could be doing comparable DPS to a TWF fighter. With enlarge person spell or rage power, a barbarian could be doing 3d6 per hit, or up to 5d6 with elemental rage tacked on.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

are there any threads specifically related to barbarians optimizing claw attacks? I suppose it's generic enough, but with the monster feats MultiAttack (secondary natural attacks at -2, such as the bite attack from one of the rage powers) and Improved Natural Attacks, by level 10 I think you could be doing comparable DPS to a TWF fighter. With enlarge person spell or rage power, a barbarian could be doing 3d6 per hit, or up to 5d6 with elemental rage tacked on.

Damage comparable to a TWF is still less damage than just using a greatsword with Power Attack.
And I'm not sure it's worth a feat just to make your bite have -2 to hit instead of -5, it's a pretty weak attack. Also, Imp. Natural Attack is another 2 feats spent. Note both of those and Multiattack cannot be taken at level 1, these would all be mid level feats; being Human and the like for more feats up front won't help ease the burden at all.

How about considering a dip into Synthesist Summoner? You can use the eidolon's evo points to improve the damage of your natural attacks, and even get pounce. The only bad part is...realizing how overpowered Synthesist Summoner is compared to the melee classes and realizing you're better off just being that instead.

e.g. I dropped my axe on a crit fumble and I didn't need to waste any actions to keep fighting.

EWWW! Crit fumble rules! I hates them, I hates them so so so so so so much!
It's one of the only houserules I've ever seen that will make me say, "You know what, screw this game, I'll find a different one to join." Pretty much without fail. Or just make a spellcaster if I'm desperate to play...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

As for builds, here's one I started working on (unfinished). It's not optimal as I was basing the character on a real life historical badass and chose curses to match, but seems decent. I built using just the core, APG, and Ultimates, so no Cornugon Smash. I'm really questioning how useful Intimidating Glare and a DC ~18 Terrifying Howl really is at his level, though, it'd probably be better to get rid of those rage powers and possibly the Dreadful Carnage chain and just do Cornugon Smash.

Ōtani Yoshitsugu, The Epitome of the Way of the Samurai (ECL 13)
[sblock]NG Half-Elf
Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 8 / Dual-Cursed Oracle 1 / Barb +4
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 12 (25 PB)
HP: xxx [+39] (12d12 +1d8 +52 +13 favored class)
Str 21 (25) [31], Dex 14 (18), Con 14 (18) [24], Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12 (14)
AC: 27 [25] (10 +9 armor +4 dex +1 insight +2 deflect +1 natural)
Touch: 17 [15]; FF: 23 [21]
Saves: Fortitude +15 [18], Reflex +11, Will +9 [12] (+2 vs. enchantment, +4 vs. disease)
BAB +12/+7/+2; CMB +19 [22], CMD 36 [37]

Feats:
1 Skill Focus (Intimidate) [Half-Elf]
1 Power Attack
3 Furious Focus
5 Step Up
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Extra Revelation (War Sight)
11 Intimidating Prowess
13 Dreadful Carnage

Skills (65):
Acrobatics +19 (13 ranks +3 class +4 dex -1 acp)
Climb +10 [13] (1 rank +3 class +7 str -1 acp)
Heal +4 (1 rank +3 class)
Intimidate +34 [37] (13 ranks +3 class +2 cha +7 str +6 focus +3 competence)
Know (history) +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Know (nature) +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Know (planes) +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Know (religion) +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Perception +18 (13 ranks +3 class +2 racial)
Spellcraft +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Survival +6 (3 ranks +3 class)
Swim +10 [13] (1 rank +3 class +7 str -1 acp)

Class: Fast Movement, Greater Rage (+6 str/con, +3 will, -2 AC; 30 rounds/day), Invulnerability (DR 6/--; DR 12 vs. nonlethal), Extreme Endurance (Endure Elements [heat] and fire resist 3), Lame Curse (-10 ft speed; immune to fatigue; not slowed by encumbrance), Wasting Curse (-4 on non-Intimidate cha checks; +4 saves vs. disease), Battle Mystery, Misfortune Revelation (Immediate, cause creature w/in 30 ft to reroll, limit once/creature/day)
Rage Powers: 2 - Intimidating Glare, 4 - Reckless Abandon, 6 – Guarded Life, 8 – Terrifying Howl, 10 - Flesh Wound, 12 - Come and Get Me

Spells (CL 1):
Level 0, infinite/day, DC 12: Detect Magic, Guidance, Light, Spark
Level 1, 4/day, DC 13: Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Entropic Shield

Equipment:
+3 Nodachi
+3 Mithral Breastplate
Str +4
Dex +4
Con +4
Cha +2
Circlet of Persuasion
Dusty Rose Iuon Stone
Ring of Protect +2
Natural Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +3
Potions of Invigorate[/sblock]

[sblock]Yoshitsugu was at the head of about 600 men, with another 4000 or so under Toda Shigemasa, Hiratsuka Tamehiro, Ōtani Yoshikatsu (his son), and Kinoshita Yoritsugu. As the battle raged on, Kobayakawa Hideaki, who was situated above Yoshitsugu on Mount Matsuo, didn't move, despite repeated calls from Ishida Mitsunari. Yoshitsugu suspected something, and thus called for his troops to position themselves so as to prepare for a possible attack from their flanks. His hunch was right, as following a stimulatory gun volley from Ieyasu's position, Kobayakawa Hideaki and his troops rushed down the mountain towards Yoshitsugu's position. This movement was immediately followed by Akaza Naoyasu, Ogawa Suketada, Kutsuki Mototsuna, and Wakizaka Yasuharu, a total of over 20,000 troops.

Yoshitsugu's troops fought back, at one point even driving back Kobayakawa's troops partway up the mountain, but in the end, sheer numbers took their toll. While this was happening, Yoshitsugu, unable to see, repeatedly asked one of his retainers, Yuasa Gosuke, "Is it lost?" When the latter finally answered in the affirmative, Yoshitsugu asked him to cut his head off. He was then beheaded by his retainer, who also committed seppuku.[/sblock]

 

[Gorgoroth]

dpr

is a greatsword comparable even with power attack to a TWF build?

let's assume level 10:
bab : 10 (+2 more when raging due to str)
str 18 = +4 (+4 more when raging)

expected chance to hit, e.g. 60% at +16
...

magic greatsword +3 vs amulet of mighty fists +3

greatsword /w elemental rage:
2 attacks, 10-3(PA)+3magic+2(rage)+4 = +16 / +11
damage per hit = 3d6 + 9 (two hand str bonus) + 9 (PA) +3 magic = 10.5 + 18 + 3 = 31.5
total expected dpr (0.6 + 0.35 = 0.9) * 31.5 = 28.35

two claws at 3d6 (greater animal totem + improved natural attacks + elemental rage):
3 attacks, +16/+16 / +11
damage per hit = 3d6 + 6 (one hand str bonus) + 6 (PA) +3 magic = 25.5
total expected dpr (0.6 + 0.35 + 0.35 = 0.9) * 25.5 = 33.15

ahead by a bit, methinks. the Two handed guy wins against enemies with damage shields where less number of attacks wins, the twf guy wins with more static buffs to damage (although for natural claw attacks, I'm not sure what that is, exactly). The claw guy also wins when you drop your sword, are in town, are captured, etc. I think a good strategy, considering I want pounce anyway at level 10 via greater beast totem and the natural armor is always useful, is to do both.

the Two handed guy could benefit from weapon focus or energy damage tacked onto his sword, which would give him probably slightly higher dpr. So, I don't know...I love swords but versatility is top. And pounce is great, even if you never intend to use your claws. I'll probably end up with elemental rage and all the beast totem stuff, and save feats from improved natural attacks for more rage powers or toughness or something.

If there would be a way to add +d6 energy damage to claws from a magic item, similar to a Shock or Flaming Sword does, I think claws come out ahead again. I would also assume that weapon focus would give more dpr to the claw guy than the two handed guy, and but I'm not sure if giving up d8 -> 2d6 jump at level 10 is worth +1 to hit. From 4e I know + to hit is godly, so I'll probably grab weapon focus claws from oracle dip anyway