Barbarian is up!!!

[MrMyth]

9. This class doesn't mark, but its AC is so low that its almost like its marking everyone adjacent to it anyways. Seriously, a starting AC of 14 is pretty likely, and by level 30 that's only going to improve to about a 24 unless you invest in chainmail or put points in dex.

AC 24 is pretty inaccurate for level 30 (though your point itself remains intact.)

10 (base) + 15 (level) + 5 (elderhide) + 6 (enhancement) +1 (dex or int) = AC 37. Now, that is still low enough that enemies of his level are going to hit him pretty much all the time. Chainmail bumps it up to AC 43, which is a pretty enormous jump for 1 feat - though it is still low enough to get hit pretty often. If he throws 4 feats at the problem, so he can get platemail and armor specialization, he's looking at AC 46, and suddenly has a 50/50 shot of getting hit by most enemies - he may have had to put aside some nice other choice in return for those armor feats.

I suspect chainmail will be almost impossible to pass up at higher levels. For a barbarian that completely dumps Dex and Int, it makes a difference of 3 AC at Heroic, 5 AC at Paragon, and 6 AC at Epic. (Since level 11 and 21 will boost your Dex and Int.) 6 AC for 1 feat is an excellent trade - I can't imagine turning it down. Maybe add in Scale and Armor Specialization for 2 more points of AC, along with no armor check or speed penalties.

Now, for a character who starts with some Dex, it isn't as urgent a feat. A starting Dex of 14 means at level 1, Chainmail is only +1 AC over Hide. I'm sure the barbarian will have plenty of better offensive choices to spend his feats on for a while. In the end, no matter what he does, his AC isn't going to be so great - but his high hp and access to countless temps (and Resist All from certain powers) will help with that quite a bit. What it won't help with is the conditions he gets plagued by - saving throw boosts are quite valuable for this guy, I imagine.

But back him up with a Paladin and a Cleric - to keep him safe and healed and give him free saving throws when needed - and he definitely looks likely to completely destroy the enemies in his path.

 

[Phaezen]

Well, I think it is a problem. It's nothing like any of the other classes have. There are a lot of other ways to do it. Like I said, I think its a cool ability. Its application needs work. The fact that so many people are having issues grasping the concept makes it a problem. I wouldn't hate the class if it stayed this way, but at the very least it needs to be explained better.

The thing is, it is not an ability that other classes need, they can spam thier dailies as they see fit. A barbarian's daily attack powers all have an ongoing effect, but you can only have one at a time. This ability of thiers allows them the choice to keep thier current rage (gained from using a daily attack power) up while gaining the advantage of the damage dealt by using a daily attack. The fact that it is useless until level 5, is besides the point as all classes only have 1 daily attack power until level 5.

Phaezen

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Lots of great analysis on this thread. Thanks guys.

As it stands, my initial look at the barbarian is that we have a very, very strong 1st-level class. Huge hit points, lots of temporary hit-point opportunities, and excellent at-wills: sign me up. Damage does not seem out of line with other strikers, but I am concerned about the hit points. With high Str/Con, heavy armors are a no-brainer and should be easy to achieve without much fuss. I think we'll be seeing many barbs taking Scale proficiency by Level 4, maybe as early as level 2.

Rage Strike is just... whacky. At first glance, it looks absolutely gross. And maybe it is, but it's hard to say without seeing it in action. The inability to use it until 5th level is not a balancing factor for all those damage dice. What I'd really like to see is an analysis of Barbarian vs. Ranger vs. Rogue for most consistent damage. Say, average damage over 1000 hits. I think that's a more telling statistic than simply looking at the amount of damage a barbarian can do in one hit, or even one fight. I'm imagining some very ruinous combos with Minotaurs and Oversized executioner axes, but maybe that's just my irrational power creep fears rearing their ugly heads.

I think a Human Ranger/Paragon multiclass Barbarian could be a very interesting combo.

That's all I have to add for now.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Gah, so much gnashing of teeth and so many odd workarounds for Rage Strike. Wouldn't the easier, more elegant way of doing it just be removing the "Must already be raging" condition? Trading an unused Rage power for the damage seems Rage-y enough to me.

*shrug*

 

[Mengu]

1) The chainmail must have problem. The reality is chainmail does seem like a gimey feat right now, which means the balance of the class around low AC is flawed.

Solution: Class Ability: "Natural Toughness". Can add Con to AC instead of dex or Int. Does not stack with heavy armors.

Agreed. But since there is also a Charisma based barbarian build, it may be better to say constitution or charisma, instead of just constitution, which would favor one build over the other.

2) Rage Strike encounters novaing. The big question here is, and the one that needs the most playtesting, how good are barbarians when they aren't raging?

Not nearly as good as when they are raging. If I was playing a Barbarian, I would never waste a daily on a nova attack. You want to be able to rage in as many encounters as possible. Which makes Rage Strike a rather pointless power. There are plenty of other ways of getting big attacks: items, action points, etc. Rage Strike can be scrapped, and it will have no adverse effect on the class.

3) Barbarian at-will powers are too good for multiclassing. I actually don't think so on this one. Howling Strike is no twin strike in my opinion. If the rogue takes it, he's having to use a strength attack instead of a dex attack, so he suffers a bit there. And...as others have mentioned paragon multiclassing kind of blows right now. So if I'm giving up paragon paths for barbarian at-wills....is that really a problem?

Again, agreed.

3) No ability to rage without dailies. I agree there should be a mechanic to allow rage without dailies. I would say when they are bloodied is easiest enough. It lets the barbarian rage for some general benefits, but doesn't give him the power of the daily rages.

There needs to be some clean way to word that. Dragoborns already gain some nice benefits from being bloodied. With all the ways of gaining Temp HP's, that bloodied mechanic can get out of hand. And I wouldn't want people not healing up much between encounters so they can quickly rage.

In general, it does suck that you can only rage once per day for levels 1-4. My players can go through 6-7 encounters in one day, and 1/6 or 1/7 encounters doesn't seem enough. I'd change the rage mechanic so every time a Barbarian uses an action point to gain an extra action, they rage. This would make it more controlled in frequency, and more of a tactical choice for the player.

4) Striker with defender hitpoints. I absolutely applaud this. I do NOT want the classes to become so straightjacketed by rules that we sacrifice good class design for conformity. This was the problem with monsters in 3e, writers found it hard to make good monsters that had to conform to the formula.

Now I'm not saying the barbarian is currently balanced with defender HP, but I'm sure it could be. But I do not want roles to become the tomb for good class design, and I'm pleased to see WOTC is willing to push the envelope a bit on this one.

They have not made any declarations for PC classes for HP's, defenses, healing surges, or anything other game mechanic, based on role. I have no doubt they intend to fully utilize that flexibility both as a design tool and a balancing tool.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Raging Strike is not an appealing power to me. You need to burn you cool, strongest powers (dailies) each time you use it. It's like a heartbreak each time you use that power.

I think that's a large part of the strong negative reaction to Rage Strike. Someone else mentioned that the extra damage isn't worth the loss of the effect; in most cases I disagree (25th level being the exception). It's not that it isn't worth it, it's that it doesn't seem as cool.

I think a decent compromise is allow a flat +2[W] for Rage Strike (possibly increased with a feat) and allow the effect to happen as well, without gaining the rage ability. This has the added side effect of allowing WotC to play with the damages for the Rages a little more.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Not nearly as good as when they are raging. If I was playing a Barbarian, I would never waste a daily on a nova attack. You want to be able to rage in as many encounters as possible. Which makes Rage Strike a rather pointless power.

You make the assumption that all encounters are of equal threat and importance, and also that there are as many daily encounters as he has daily rages. When circumstances don't fit those criteria, it's very valuable.

 

[MrMyth]

Sure, but what ever happened to standard progression for all the classes? Sorry, I agree with Kamikaze. Its kludgy. Given the choice of having rage strike and having it kick in at 5th level or not have it all? For me? No thanks. Give me something else.

But that's the thing - the choice isn't between rage strike and some other class feature. It is being placed there to specifically address a weakness in the way the class functions. I think the concept of that is a sound one - they aren't costing you anything to put in this patch.

That said, it is clunky and I think needs some serious revision. I'm a fan of those who think working it into powers directly would be a good solution that solves many of the issues folks have with it. There are a lot of good thoughts on this thread on how to fix it.

 

[Zsig]

1) The chainmail must have problem. The reality is chainmail does seem like a gimey feat right now, which means the balance of the class around low AC is flawed.

Solution: Class Ability: "Natural Toughness". Can add Con to AC instead of dex or Int. Does not stack with heavy armors.

One could simply fix that by ruling that you can only use the barbarian class features -Feral Might (including the extra encounter feature that comes with it), Rage and Rampage (maybe not Rampage as it's not that awesome)- while wearing light armor or no armor, kind of the same way rogues needs a certain kind of weapon to their Sneak Attack.

 

[andarilhor]

Because Rage Strike is an at-will ability. Here's how it's supposed to go down.

Round X: Use daily rage power, make the hit. You have a benefit going.
Round Y: Use Rage Strike to do mondo damage each round.
Round Z: Profit.

By my understanding of the rage strike power funcions like this:

Round 1: Use a daily, enter rages
Round 2: spend another daily, uses rage strike, make a lot of damage instead of gaining a cool effect.


So, I made my own version of rage strike:

Rage Strike BarbarianCF
At-Will♦Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Requirement: You must be raging to use this power.
Target: onde creature
Attack: Str vs AC
Hit: 3W+Str mod. Increase to 5W+Str mod in 11st level and 7W+Str mod in 21st level.
Miss: Half Damage
Effect: You are no longer in rage.


This way you still exchanges cool effects for damage, but can use the cool effect by one turn at least.

Any thoughts?