Barbarian is up!!!

[gribble]

And Hurricane of Blades is NOT broken either. Sure, you get up to six attacks with it, but you are only doing a single [W] worth of damage. Its a minion killer, but not very useful against the bucket of hitpoints that a 27th level non-minion monster is going to have. I'd much rather have Blood Frenzy and be able to dish out 5[W] worth of damage as my 27th level encounter power.

Then you don't really understand how 4e powers work.


At 27th level your bonus to damage is likely to be much higher than your [W].
Even assuming only half your 6 attacks hit, with a 2d6 weapon (the best case for a higher [W] power), this equates to 6d6 + 6X vs 10d6 + X.
By 27th level, a character should have a primary ability of at least 21 - assuming a 14 at 1st level (most character will have at least 2-4 points more) - which equates to +5. Add the assumed +4-5 from your weapon, and X is looking to be at least 9. Average on 2d6 [W] is 7.

So we have (assuming only half your attacks hit) 48 points of damage for the 6[W] + 6X power, vs 44 for the 5[W] power...

If (the more likely scenario - normally PCs in 4e have a slightly better than 50% change of hitting) 4 of your attacks hit that becomes 64 points of damage vs 44...

If all 6 hit, it becomes 96 points of damage.

And that is in the best possible scenario for the 5[W] attack. Likely X will be much higher for any 27th level character, and it's also probable the weapon won't be a 2d6 weapon. It's also desregarding criticals - I don't think I have to prove that 6 attacks are more likely to score at least one critical than 1.


So not only is it the more flexible power (equally effective against a swarm of minions or a solo), it also has the higher average, expected and maximum damage.
How is that not broken?

 

[Runestar]

If all 6 hit, it becomes 96 points of damage.

??? I am estimating ~300-400 damage on average (not factoring in crits) for the typical optimized barbarian...how did you get so little?

That said, any multiclass options which benefit the barb? I am already thinking ranger for hunter's quarry, augmenting his already impressive damage dealing capabilities. Thoughts?

 

[Obryn]

- With this and the spellsword class, I think we're seeing a definite power creep, and it's one that's already starting very early on.

The spellsword is overpowered? I remember that was a concern when we only had guesswork available, but it's a very well-balanced class in its final iteration. Its at-wills are pretty cool, but its dailies and encounters are kinda weak. The aegis of shielding is likely better than a Paladin's Divine Challenge, but it's limited in the same way. A fighter's marks are easier to activate and hold people in place much better.

- Lots of stuff here is poorly written, and I think there's one in particular we're ALL talking about. Even if you personally don't see a problem with it, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people do.

It's an open playtest, though. I expect all the comments and criticism will be examined before its final release. So threads like this are exactly what WotC is looking for. "Rage Strike doesn't make sense" is a good thing to know.

-O

 

[sukael]

??? I am estimating ~300-400 damage on average (not factoring in crits) for the typical optimized barbarian...how did you get so little?

How are you getting such high results?

 

[gribble]

??? I am estimating ~300-400 damage on average (not factoring in crits) for the typical optimized barbarian...how did you get so little?

Because my example isn't anywhere near optimised. I was demonstrating that even in the worst possible scenario, it still had a much higher expected damage output.
I'd expect in an optimised scenario, which included criticals, the damage would be closer to what you expect. I believe this is why bonuses aren't included in X[W] and crits aren't multiplied in 4e. It's the 3.x damage optimisation method...

 

[AllisterH]

re: Swordmage

Er, I thought the consensus was that a paladin was just plain tougher than the defending swordmage whereas the fighter still exceeded the assault swordmage in terms of DPR. I'm be interested in seeing the consensus that the swordmage was actually better.

re: RAGE
I think one fundamental decision point was made by WOTC here. How they see RAGE being used.

If you see RAGE as something the barbarian should do in ALL fights (Easy, standard and Challenging), then Rage should be an encounter power.

However, WOTC's designers believe RAGE should be invoked only when the barbariam has his back to the wall (challenging fight) and as such, the Rage mechanic is tied to the dailies.

re: Multiclassing
This is why we have the feat system. I don't see a ranger or rogue picking up any of the encounter level powers since a ranger still does more damage anyway whereas the rogue's abilities mostly key off of Dex and for a rogue, ranger encounter powers are still better.

Even with full level paragon multiclassing, I'm still not convinced it's better in terms of DPR than to go either Pit fighter or Kensei.

re: RAGE Strike
Like others, when I read it first, I got the idea it WAS intended to allow for the barbarian to NOVA like the other classes. Otherwise, each daily would have to have those extra lines built into the power description.

 

[gribble]

How are you getting such high results?

Optimised Barbarian:
Str (26) +8
Magic Weapon +5
Weapon Focus +3
Power Attack +9 (admittedly, this would reduce the chances of hitting with 6 attacks considerably)
That's +25 damage, without too much effort. When you factor in power, rage and other bonuses I'm sure you could easily top +30 to damage. When you multiply this by 6, thats 180 points without factoring in dice damage or criticals. And I'm not even much of an optimiser...

 

[AllisterH]

Optimised Barbarian:
Str (26) +8
Magic Weapon +5
Weapon Focus +3
Power Attack +9 (admittedly, this would reduce the chances of hitting with 6 attacks considerably)
That's +25 damage, without too much effort. When you factor in power, rage and other bonuses I'm sure you could easily top +30 to damage. When you multiply this by 6, thats 180 points without factoring in dice damage or criticals. And I'm not even much of an optimiser...

I do think if you want to show someone, using PA is not a good choice.

PA will significantly drop that average since ALREADY, at that level, monsters defenses are higher than what they were at 1st level when compared to a PC attack bonus.

 

[mattdm]

1) Rage Strike is worthless. Sorry, yes, I said it. It encourages going Nova through your daily powers, and it's not damaging enough to really be worth sacrificing more daily powers than otherwise. One idea we're tossing around is to key Rage Strike off sacrificing healing surges, instead.

But that takes away the entire point of Rage Strike's existence in the first place. Better to just drop the feature.

 

[gribble]

I do think if you want to show someone, using PA is not a good choice.

I freely admitted that. All I was illustrating in this case is that it is certainly possible to achieve some very high numbers under ideal circumstances. I think under normal circumstances, around 100-150 points is more like what you'll get if all attacks hit (and given that only 3-4 attacks are likely to hit, most probably around 50-100 points on an average use of the power).

My point stll stands - this is more than the expected damage output than a 5[W] + Str power against a solo.