Bardic Fascination and Suggestion: multiple targets

[Pielorinho]

Ned the bard has helped a prisoner escape from prison, and they're hiding out in a shack as four guards, searching for the prisoner, approach. Ned, a 10th-level bard, steps out of the shack and begins to sing a beautiful, haunting melody.

Just like that, the guards stop to listen, and all fail their (extremely difficult) Will save. They're fascinated. Ned gets the bright idea to send them into the shack to take a relaxing, armor-gree nap while he continues to sing. He uses the bardic suggestion ability to pass this suggestion along to the first guard, and then turns to the second guard. What happens?

1) He uses Suggestion on the second guard (and then third and fourth) without using up another bardic music charge: while he can't do mass simultaneous suggestions until he hits like 18th level or something, he can offer sequential suggestions to the folks that he's already fascinated, without using up extra charges.
2) He uses Suggestion on the second guard (and then third and fourth), at a cost of one bardic music usage per additional guard: while this isn't supported by the rules, it's a nice compromise.
3) He must re-fascinate guards 2, 3, and 4 before he can try to use another Suggestion attempt: you only get one of these per fascinate attempt.
4) He can't do that: that's dumb, or is forbidden by some rule that Ned's player Daniel is unaware of.

I'm leaning toward #1, but then, I'm playing a bard in just this situation . What do y'all think?

Daniel

 

[Infiniti2000]

Unfortunately, I think I'd go for #4. It specifically says "This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below)." The fascination, however, is not broken on the other three guards. Once the suggestion on the first guard ends, then I'd rule that you could use suggestion on someone else.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd go for option #2 as what seems to be a fair compromise. Is that what a strictly legal reading of the rules would enforce? I don't know and I don't really care. It seems fair and within the spirit of the class and the power which is being used.

Cheers

 

[Infiniti2000]

Perhaps, but it's not any different that mass suggestion if you have enough bardic music usages to burn. Is it? I mean, the fascinated creatures can do nothing else, so they're basically waiting around for you. How often do you use up all your usages?

 

[Pielorinho]

Unfortunately, I think I'd go for #4. It specifically says "This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below)." The fascination, however, is not broken on the other three guards. Once the suggestion on the first guard ends, then I'd rule that you could use suggestion on someone else.

Hmm--so you're saying that the quoted text means that only a single creature at a time may be under the effect of the bard's suggestion ability? That seems iffy to me: I read it as saying that a use of this ability only affects a single creature, and I think that's how most other similar abilities work.

Daniel

 

[Infiniti2000]

I can see both sides, but given the mass suggestion ability, that's the way I would interpret it. If using up the bardic music usages is actually a significant factor, then the way you interpret could be fine, too. So, basically you are saying you have the ability to do mass suggestion, but only against 1 creature per level (assuming no other usages have been used).

 

[Pielorinho]

I can see both sides, but given the mass suggestion ability, that's the way I would interpret it. If using up the bardic music usages is actually a significant factor, then the way you interpret could be fine, too. So, basically you are saying you have the ability to do mass suggestion, but only against 1 creature per level (assuming no other usages have been used).

#1 has few disadvantages compared to mass suggestion: the only major one is that, by giving the suggestions iteratively, you're limited in which suggestions you can give (e.g., a suggestion that the targets draw weapons and charge into battle would be fine for mass suggestion, but would be tricky to carry off iteratively, since perceived danger would cancel the effect). Also, because it would take longer to complete, it could be disadvantageous in a time-sensitive situation. The main thing #1 has going for it is that a strict reading of the rules would seem to allow it to me. I'm not a big proponent of strict readings, though .
#2 has the disadvantages of #1, plus the disadvantage of using additional bardic music charges. While I don't normally run out of such charges, use of this ability like this could easily start eating them up.
#3 has the disadvantages of #2, plus the disadvantage of re-starting the whole process (which takes time, and allows for another will save). It has the advantage of being almost as rules-supportable as #1, though.
#4 I put in there for completeness's sake, and for the reason that since I've never seen this strategy used before, I thought maybe there was a reason. (Of course, the bardic fascinate ability is probably one of the least-used special abilities in the game, so that may also be why I've rarely seen it used).

Daniel

 

[Nail]

Actually, I think it's a lot clearer than you've made out.

Here's the suggestion text.

Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect.

Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability.

Pulling out the important bits:

• Using suggestion doesn't break the facinate effect. (So option #3 is unnecessary.)
• Using suggestion doesn't count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music. (So your option #2 is right out.)
• Suggestion only affects a single creature.

What's important here is that it doesn't say: "You may not use suggestion in subsequent rounds on other creatures you have facinated."

In fact, there's no limit on how many times you can use suggestion, other than the pool of creatures you've facinated! The limit stated is explicit: when you give a suggestion, it can only affect one creature. That strongly implies that you can use suggestion again.

....and really, concidering how few creatures you can facinate (only 5 by level 12!), this is No Big Deal(tm).

 

[Pielorinho]

In fact, there's no limit on how many times you can use suggestion, other than the pool of creatures you've facinated! The limit stated is explicit: when you give a suggestion, it can only affect one creature. That strongly implies that you can use suggestion again.

Ah, a proponent of #1--excellent! Next gaming session may well begin with my trying this tactic out, so I want to have an idea of how it would work.

Daniel

 

[Nail]

Let us know how it goes!