Bardic Music Suggestion on spell-fascinated target?

[Herzog]

Does the Bardic Music suggestion ability work on a target fascinated, not by the fascinate bardic music ability, but by a spell?

In case the spell requires concentration, would the Melodic Casting feat help you maintain concentration on the spell while 'performing' the suggestion ability?

 

[Herzog]

It's amazing how often I stumble upon my own enworld threads when searching using Google.

I almost forgot I asked this question.

But I'd still like to hear anyones answer/opinion.

anyone?

 

[freyar]

Here's the quote from the SRD:

Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect.

Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability.

Maybe I'm reading between the lines, but it seems like the bardic music suggestion requires the fascination to be caused by bardic music. The "see above" as well as the fact that the suggestion doesn't take a use of bardic music are most compelling to me.

 

[ElectricDragon]

I am of the other opinion. Hyptnoism (1st), Hypnotic Pattern (2nd), and Rainbow Pattern (4th) are all bardic spells that fascinate the target(s) with nearly no other effect. Fascinate is a status effect that can happen many ways: abilities or spells. It is not specified that Suggestion can only work with the bard's fascinate ability, just that "(see above)" that is an example of how fascinate works. The suggestion statedly does not interfere with Concentration on the fascinate effect, while Hyptnotism does not require Concentration on the fascinate effect, the other two spells do. Personally, I would read it as the suggestion ability works as long as it was the bard that fascinated the target(s) no matter his method of fascinating them; and it does not interfere with concentration on the effect that produced the fascinate on the target(s).

Ciao,
Dave

 

[freyar]

I am of the other opinion. Hyptnoism (1st), Hypnotic Pattern (2nd), and Rainbow Pattern (4th) are all bardic spells that fascinate the target(s) with nearly no other effect. Fascinate is a status effect that can happen many ways: abilities or spells. It is not specified that Suggestion can only work with the bard's fascinate ability, just that "(see above)" that is an example of how fascinate works. The suggestion statedly does not interfere with Concentration on the fascinate effect, while Hyptnotism does not require Concentration on the fascinate effect, the other two spells do. Personally, I would read it as the suggestion ability works as long as it was the bard that fascinated the target(s) no matter his method of fascinating them; and it does not interfere with concentration on the effect that produced the fascinate on the target(s).

Ciao,
Dave

So you would allow a bard to use the bardic music suggestion ability without spending a daily use of bardic music? Because you could do that if the fascination effect could come from a spell. Not trying to pick an argument, but that seems a little odd.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hmm...the online SRD says: "A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated."

Granted, fascinating is hyperlinked to the class ability, and the PHB insteads says: "A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above)."

So the RAW and possibly intent was to link it solely to the fascinate bardic music ability, which will have a MUCH higher save DC than any spell you could cast anyway (perform check = save DC). I don't think it'd be too powerful to let the bard get a free suggestion on creatures he fascinates with spells, I actually kind of like the synergy. Until the bard gets mass suggestion, he'd still only get to hand out one free suggestion, no matter how many he fascinates, of course. For a DM that's strictly by the books, he probably wouldn't and shouldn't allow it. I take liberties with RAW all the time, so it doesn't bother me.

 

[ElectricDragon]

The three bardic spells I mentioned are not the best spells to learn for any bard in his limited selection. It would make those choices much more viable to allow the free suggestion.

All-in-all, IMHO the bard is a weak class, sometimes fun to play; but still weak. Anything that adds to the bard's limited power is a good thing, again IMHO.

I treat the "bardic music suggestion" like Sneak Attack; in the right circumstances; it could be done repeatedly. If a bard spends one of his few known spells to increase the chances of creating those circumstances, he should benefit. Again, IMHO.

Ciao,
Dave