Bards and Elves

I thought that elves should probably get sorcerer as favoured class but then i reasoned it through.

Elves believe in art, in grace and in mastery. They believe in time producing things of worth and beauty and are deeply magical.

Therefore they are wizards. They turn magic as a primal force that can be used by kobolds with out training and they master it. they turn it into an art so that they can show its beauty and many facets (enter metamagic and item creation bonus feats) they write it down showing that it is worthy and can be displayed along with music and poetry.

I would see elves as people who work hard and play hard but try to excel at both. I mean its normaly portrayed that the poems and songs and art etc. of the elves is excellently constructed in taht it takes time order and commitment. i always have to account for their chaoticness as a strong belief in personal freedom rather than as erratic and actual chaotic, undiscipled behaviour.
 

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DocMoriartty said:
Except that most sources tend to agree that variety and new things are not what elves are all about.

*sigh* Well, "most sources" also attribute elves with a wide variety of magical powers, rather than a narrow, highly restrictive list.

So, you'd say that whenever "most sources" say a thing, we should make the game adhere to that?

I see. Go back, then, and look at most of the classic representations of European dragons. No intelligent, magic-using creatures there. The're all brutish, non-sentient, lizard monsters who cannot even speak. So we should get rid of the game dragons because they don't match the sources? And how many creatures don't even exist in "most sources"? Should we now remove them from the game because they are an inaccurate deptiction of "most fantasy"?

The fact that "most sources" say that a thing they call an "elf" behave in a particular way puts no onus on the game to make them that way. Each game takes it's own spin on things.

And literature and RPG characters can be very different. A character inliterature can be there as an icon of changelessness. How would you like to play a character who never changed, never grew? If elves are really changeless, that means they never gain levels, either. You want to play that?

Personally, I think any nominally chaotic creature whos going to live for centuries isn't going to limit itself to a tiny list of spell choices. A nihg ageless creature must take the long view. Who knows what spells you'll need 300 years from now? A wizard can adapt, a sorceror cannot. When one has the choice to do otherwise, locking oneself into such a minicule choice of powers would be phenominally stupid. No matter where you go, elves are not stupid.
 
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o.0

....I think people are using too much personal judgement calls on the nature of elves to govern this.

Elves are a lot of different thing in literature, D&D, and other fantasy artworks. It does largely depend upon what the DM/Author/Artist interpretation is.

Perhaps I'm being a bit reactionary, but it does grate on me a bit when someone references "literature," as if that, by the very nature of literature, should validate their point. :)

Anyhoo, in 3e, D&D elves have their own personality and ability. It's spelled out in the PHB.

In there, the only thing that it is said is affected by the longevity of the elves is the view they take on friends, enemies, and such. They aren't petty or easily irked, nor are they easily placated. An elf probably wouldn't respond to a paltry bribe -- of what use is that in 10 years, when the nation that forged the coin has been destroyed?

Of course, far be it from me to say that that's how elves *have* to be. They can be whatever you'd like, in your campaign. But making them different doesn't mean that they're not as good as those with more "artistic prescedence."

The PHB only gives one reason for elves to be wizards: it comes naturally to them. There's an allusion to that they might have invented it, and that fighter/wizards are common.

Well, personally, I'm a little doubtful. If magic "comes naturally," then it's not wizardry in 3e. It's sorcery. Sorcerers are even considered artsy about it: "Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems...A sorcerer's power is inborn, and a part of his sould...sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through carefully trianed skills. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical...they have more time to learn fighting skills" (which sounds like the Fighter/Wizard reference in the favored class section of the elf racial description) "for a sorcerer, magic is an intuitive art...sorcery favors the free, chaotic, creative spirit over the disciplined mind..."

Meanwhile, wizards "depend on intensive study to create their magic...for a wizard, magic is not a talent but a difficult, rewarding art...when caught by surprise, they are vulnerable...wizards show a slight tendency to law over chaos because the study of magic rewards those who are disciplined...wizards study in academies, schools, or guilds...elven wizards see themselves as artists, and hold magic in high regard as a wondrous mystery..."

Oh, and as for bards: "It is said that music has a special magic...a bard's magic comes from the heart...bards see adventures as opportunities to learn...they especially relish the opportunityto enter a long-forgotten ancient tomb, to discover ancient works of magic, to deciper old tomes, to travel to strange places, to encounter exotic creatures, and to learn new songs and stories...a bard brings forth magic from his soul, not from a book...his magic emphasizes charms and illusions...a bard works magic with his music and poetry...they have a vast knowledge of local events and noteworthy items...guided by whim and intuition rather tan tradition or law...spontaneous talent, magic, and lifestyle...many bards, even those who are not elven, woship Corellon Larthian...elves are talented in music and magic, so the career of the bard comes naturally to them..."

Based on this information, alone, straight from the PHB, and not letting other authors' ideas affect my view of elves, I'd say they DEFINATELY fit the role of a sorcerer or a bard more than that of a wizard. I would personally say sorcerer, as that's more about pure inborn magic and artistry than bards, but the list of a bard definate is something an elf would be in, and I'd say that most elves would be bard/sorcerers, not fighter/wizards.

Of course, wizard would come easily. But I think sorcerer definately fits the elvish style much more than wizards do.

The PHB says nothing about elves wanting to be varied (though it could be implied with a chaotic alignment), and nothing about them learning more because of long lifespans (with the pace of elvish life, it might take them years to memorize a line of a poem that would take a human maybe a day). The art of a sorcerer is demanding, calling up powers within, as demanding as the art of a monk. And why does elvish variety have to be mechanically represented, when it could be represented with an elf, every time they use MAGIC MISSLE with their sorcerer powers, to give it different thematic elements (today, my beads of force will be arrows. Tomorrow, it will be the swords of fallen ancestors).

Knowing a lot of spells does not make you versatile. It makes you unfocused. And "when persuing a goal,...whether an adventurous mission or learning a new skill or art" (like sorcerery is) "they can be focused and relentless."

In doing this, I've also changed the elvish racial bonus from INT to CHA. This means that elves aren't logical or especially bright, but are especially endearing and captivating. An elf could make babbling gibberish sound like the truest, most exacting poetry in the world. And they do. They make stuff up, tell people it's art, and they buy it. To an elf, making stuff up is art. They can just convince other people the same way.

Though that's more an IMHO and IMC, not really a glaring incongruity, but it helps maintain the ability bonus-to-the-favored-class that they have now.

Anyhoo, elves *can* fit the mold of the Wizard, but by what's written, they seem to more closely fit the mold of a Socerer. Bard is close, but I don't see elves being nessecarily devoted to the jack-of-all-trades class that the bard is. Maybe if you use Monte Cook's bard variant, it would fit better...
 

Bard isn't really meant to be a Favored, or popular class. It's meant to be a minor (number wise) class of information keepers and entertainers.

But at this, I see Elves dominating the upper ranks of Bardic Colleges in any land they live in. Why? Because to you or I, a tale told by our great-great-grandfather is somewhat obscure lore. The Elf says "Oh yeah, I remember that".
 

Go back, then, and look at most of the classic representations of European dragons. No intelligent, magic-using creatures there. The're all brutish, non-sentient, lizard monsters who cannot even speak.

That's just propaganda. :D
 

Here's my group's "Middle Road":

Some people want to play Tolkein elves, noble and majestic.

Some people want to play elves that are whimsical and free-spirited.

Lastly, some people want to play elves as being very in touch with nature.

We decided to just satisfy them all, so we reassigned the categories from the FRCS (or MM, if you prefer).

Gold elves (grey elves in MM) are your Tolkein elves, and actually tend more towards neutrality than chaos. We keep them as written (+2 Int, -2 Con, FC: wizard).

Moon elves (standard PHB elf) are the whimsical pseudo-fey creatures. They get +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Wis. For favored class, they can pick either bard or sorcerer at 1st level and it stays that way from then on.

The wood elves are the hardcore woodsmen. They use the standard PHB racial modifiers (come on, you know +2 Str and -2 Con doesn't belong on the same race... a whole species of sickly strong people?). Their favored class is ranger.

There are also wild elves, sea elves, and drow, but we leave those the same.

It all just depends on elves in your world.

If you're going for a more accurate favored class by the core PHB elves, there's definitely some wiggle room. Either way, I don't see it throwing off balance, so just make it what you want.
 


Noone mentioned Druids? Silly me, i kinda associate druids with the free spirited, neutral, nature revering elves. Living hand in hand with the wild, natural obstacles parting before them, animals befriending them, of course we see none of this in fantasy describing elves. I must be thinking of those sylvan speaking Dwarves and their special relationship with trees.

Oops, forgot the [Sarcasm]
 

The reason many don't associate elves with druids is because elves may be all about nature, but druids are *hardcore* nature. They're about both the joyful and the harmful sides of the natural world, whereas most elves are all about the hippie-style revelry, but suggest that orcs are more in tune with nature than themselves (heck, they have it living on them in many cases), and they'll call them "dirty."

Plus, druids can't use bows.

I like the idea of using sub-races of elves as the different elf-types.

Oh, and as a side-note, giving some race Illusionist as a favored class don't balance squat, really. If all the classes are balanced in power, then giving someone Illusionist is really no different than giving someone Fighter or Ranger or any other class. It's not a limitation. However, having *any* favored class is a bonus, as it applies to more than one class.

You can change around favored classes with very little change in anything but the culture of your race. Elves with bards as a favored class would probably value the music and artistry, be multifaceted, and enjoy wandering. Elves with Fighter as a favored class (like Sea Elves) would value the martial side of elven life more. It's all in culture.
 

Argh

Druids can't use bows... Now lets not start another rant about druids weapon choices...

WILDELVES: Favored class sorcerer. There you got it. Where is the problem? The not so high civilised elves got sorcerer, the high elves prefer wizardry.

As for bards: I'd allow it (and still hope my DM allows it too :D)

Why not allowing elves to take bard as second favored class per feat? That's what I do.
 

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