bards in your world, advice sought

[devilbat]

I wish I had a cool bard like that in my game. All ours tend to be the "Sing at the back of the party" type.

Anyway, I'd call up the DM the day after the game, and ask him to discuss his views on the bard class, abilities and rules.

 

[Shadowdancer]

example four: apparently suggestion or charm person only work on party members when cast by an npc.

My understanding has always been that use of spells or skills that affect another characters' freedom of choice never work when it is PC to PC. You can get in a physical fight with another PC, or cast a spell against them that causes damage. But you can't charm them, or use suggestion, or even Bluff them with them making an opposed Sense Motive check; they are free to believe your Bluff or not, the results do not rest on the roll of dice. Otherwise powerful spell-casting PCs can just make all the other PCs their mindless puppets, and that wouldn't be too much fun for the puppets.

NPCs can cast mind-effecting spells against PCs, but that's what saving throws are for. And NPCs can use skills against PCs, but that's what opposed checks are for. And it works the other way, too.

As for your other examples, it sounds like the DM is a little unsure of the rules and is making rulings on the spot rather than looking up the actual rule. Perhaps so he won't appear weak (not in control) and/or so that you and your character aren't "running the show." Or maybe he is afraid that your character's actions will upset his carefully constructed adventure.

Whatever the reason, as others have already said, you should have a talk with him in a non-confrontational manner. Maybe approach him by saying you are having a problem understanding a certain rule and how it is applied in the game. Then when he explains it to you, you might be able to determine if he doesn't really know the rule or whether he doesn't like the rule and has changed it. If he doesn't know the rule, you can explain your interpretation of it and see if you can enlighten him. If he just doesn't like the rule, you might be able to change his mind or reach a compromise you can both live with, but you may just have to accept his rule and move on.

If he's just afraid your actions will mess up his adventure, then try to come to a metagame compromise. Without disclosing specifics about the adventure, ask him for some ways you can run your character the way you want to that won't ruin his plans.

 

[Errant]

My first question is: do you and the other players have any say in all the house rules being introduced into the game? If not, it sounds like you have a pretty tyrannical DM. I'm quite fond of a few house rules but I always discuss them with the group ahead of time. Sometimes I get the group to adopt them as is (even if only on a trial basis), sometimes we have a brainstorm and come up with a compromise, sometimes they just don't like it and I have to decide whether my preferences are worth forcing everyone else to play a game they don't want to play ('no' is the standard answer there btw). Maybe its time for a round-table discussion with the whole group to try and get some consensus. The idea is for everyone to have fun of course, not just the DM (or players for that matter).

It sounds like you have a really cool character concept that I'd welcome at my gaming table but I think I'd share your DM's worry that regularly taking advantage of your fellow players/PCs would ruin the fun. The difference is, I've always allowed my players to use their abilities on each other's PCs so I wouldn't stop you using the powers, but I would make you live with the consequences.

When you cast Charm Person on an NPC, you're usually gone before the spell wears off and they start to wonder why they liked you so much. There's nothing in the spell description that suggests they forget their feelings or what transpired after all. When you use Charm Person (etc) on a PC however, you tend to still be there when the spell wears off. You might be able to get away with it if you do so rarely, but once your fellow PCs start to understand, or even just suspect, your powers, they're going to get really, really suspicious. That opens the door for circumstance bonuses to saving throws, something already available and entirely up to the DM's discretion (when he remembers to allow it).

You might suggest to the DM that he allows you to use your powers against PCs, but, unless they're extremely distracted (in the heat of life or death battle for instance) every time you do it gives them a cumulative +2 circumstances bonus to their saves (open negotiations without the 'cumulative' part to let him 'win' a concession from you if you want to be crafty). With any luck, your DM might see it as a workable compromise. You'll get to use your powers enough to generate a few interesting roleplaying moments amongst the party, and your fellow players (hopefully) won't feel they're getting excessively taken advantage of.

Reminds me of a time a cleric PC of mine became suspicious of the PC rogue in the group (after a number of incidents). I challenged him to answers a couple of questions under the influence of a Zone of Truth, thinking if he failed (as I was confident he would), my cleric could make it his project to help the wayward halfling repent of his wrongs. The other player apparently thought I was leading up to killing his PC so he refused the challenge and bolted from town on the first horse he could find. Turns out the rogue was pilfering a lot more than I suspected (courtesy of notes back & forth with the DM). Made for a very interesting session. If the rogue had thrown himself on the group's mercy it would have been even better.

 

[cmanos]

sound slike your DM doesn't know how to handle the things you are doing. He's got his own agenda and isn't let you tell your story along with it. Ask him if you should just scrap the bard and build a dumb fighter, or if he's going to work within the rules and let the bard do what bards do. If he goes for dumb fighter, find a new DM who is more into roleplaying and less into roll-playing.

 

[doktorziplok]

Ask him if you should just scrap the bard and build a dumb fighter, or if he's going to work within the rules and let the bard do what bards do.

funny thing is, the bard is what i built after the deaths of my previous characters: a sorcerer (who only ever got to cast magic missile, scorching ray and fireball) and a dumb fighter (a two-weapon fighter who could throw his swords).

 

[Andor]

It sounds like your GM thinks he is running a 2nd ed game. I'd suggest you contact the rest of your players and as a group at the start of the next session sit the GM down and tell him to either print and distribute a house rule book, or play by the RAW.

House rules are fine, springing them on you in mid game is not.

 

[eris404]

I hate to analyze people, especially those I haven't even met, but it sounds like to me that you have an adversarial DM, someone who likes to play against the players (instead of playing the monsters and NPCs against the PCs). When he sees that a PC has a power that seems too good or is being used in a way he didn't forsee, he simply outlaws it or finds a way to (forgive the use of this term) nerf it.

My experience has been that people who DM this way enjoy having all the power and will not stop unless all of the players are unhappy and confront him about it. My experience also has been that even then they won't stop, unfortunately. Would another player in your group be willing to run a game?

 

[Conaill]

My understanding has always been that use of spells or skills that affect another characters' freedom of choice never work when it is PC to PC. You can get in a physical fight with another PC, or cast a spell against them that causes damage. But you can't charm them, or use suggestion, or even Bluff them with them making an opposed Sense Motive check; they are free to believe your Bluff or not, the results do not rest on the roll of dice. Otherwise powerful spell-casting PCs can just make all the other PCs their mindless puppets, and that wouldn't be too much fun for the puppets.

Of course, there an easy solution to this, which for once does *not* rely on what the DM allows or does not allow.

If the other *players* know your PC is a spell-casting bard and not a rogue, you can always talk to them, player-to-player, and tell them you would like to keep their *PCs* from finding out about this, through the occasional innocuous use of Charm spells. If they are mature players who can separate in-game from meta-game knowledge, there's no reason that shouldn't work.