Bards - The Greatest of All Classes

[alsih2o]

But what you are saying is that it is impossible that there is any thing that a single bard couldn't know.

This is quite different.

 

[Rystil Arden]

barely capable of the ordinary abilities of relatively modern, historical minstrels.

I hope this is a joke. Historical minstrels did not have magic songs.

Anyway, your analogy

"the ogre has big muscles and therefore cannot be defeated by fighters".

is flawed. The roll is outside the scope of D&D Bardic Knowledge (if not the form of Bardic Knowledge that you have convinced yourself that everyone who plays D&D anywhere must use because you like it best). A better analogy is a PC wizard who finds out that no matter how hard he tries to make a caster level check, he can't cast any spells from within an antimagic field (or how he can't beat the SR on a magic-immune creature like a golem).

 

[gizmo33]

A better analogy is a PC wizard who finds out that no matter how hard he tries to make a caster level check, he can't cast any spells from within an antimagic field (or how he can't beat the SR on a magic-immune creature like a golem).

And such a "medieval media blackout" is justified based on what text in WLD? This may be beyond the scope of people without the WLD dungeon to discuss, but let me go to REGION A page 20 of the 840 page book. Here's the quote:

"Research and the aid of his imp familiar, Achsyyx, Longtail found out about the dungeon, it's history, and original purpose."

I don't see any kind of Anti-bardic field around the dungeon. In fact, I can pick a region at random and find a basis for bardic knowledge. I'll do just that:

Region D, first sentence: "Chtrax is a diabolic zxill of such caiber that his society cast him out to wander the planes..."

And none of this would be possibly known? Even amongst persons who are the same level of those that can cast Wish spells? Not even a DC 30 bard check? Does someone know enough about Xill to know that they never speak of the events of their community with anyone who has the capability of recording such knowledge in the form of verse? And that a 20th level bard wouldn't even have a crack at this?

 

[Klaus]

I believe the original post stemmed from the sentence in World's Largest Dungeon that stated that Bardic Knowledge was useless with regards to WLD. Which is, by itself, really bad design. Good adventure design takes the character's abilities into account, they don't just handwave them away.

I like the Bard class. A Bard/Master Investigative (ECS) is a great detective or archaeologist type.

 

[sullivan]

Bards - The Gratingest of All Classes



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Ya, I know I just made up a word. What can I say, i've got a creativite soul.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The diabolic xill would probably be allowed under Bardic Knowledge. Just because the beginning says that "bardic lore isn't going to help much" doesn't mean that you can't find out anything from bardic lore, but seriously, how much would it help you to know the xill's backstory after you kill him? Not much (It would be pretty cool to think up appropriate details though, and to hear the story in a roleplaying perspective, so that the enemy becomes more than a nameless foe).

That said, I agree that eliminating all possible bardic knowledge checks if that other guy was able to research it is very poor design. However, that doesn't change the fact that your original argument was specious. If you had started with:

"In World's Largest Dungeon Area A, there is a wizard who has researched the dungeon with the aid of his familiar, and yet they dismiss the possible of a bard knowing anything from bardic knowledge offhand. This is a poor design choice that hurts the bard. "

I probably would have agreed that this was poor design. It is important to use the right tool for the right job. As someone who understood all your references, I would assume that the first rant was aimed mainly at people like me, since anyone else would just scroll through it without realising their import, so your choice clearly wasn't aimed at them. And even so, I don't buy the original argument.

 

[Yeoman]

A) This doesn't alter the fact that the bard class, as written, totally and completely sucks.

What exactly sucks about the bard? Am I missing something?

 

[Rystil Arden]

What exactly sucks about the bard? Am I missing something?

Its not so much that the bard class sucks as that clerics and druids are very powerful and easily comparable to the bard. So from a purely mechanical perspective, you give up very little to switch from a bard to one of those two and in exchange gain much better casting and some powerful abilities.

The concept of the bard is still one of my favourites, but the few times I get to play, I don't want to upset the other players, so I have played a Telepath masquerading as a bard in a campaign where psionic-use was a capital crime and a 3.0 Enchanter/Virtuoso.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

While I wouldn't go so far as to 100% equate D&D Bards with either historical bards or Elan, I do think it's a real cop-out for the writers to say that bardic lore is useless with the WLD. It's like saying that a ranger can't track within the dungeon, or that a thief can't climb walls.

I've been a fan of the bard class for some time; I was very proud when a character of mine managed to qualify the bard class in 1e.

 

[der_kluge]

What exactly sucks about the bard? Am I missing something?

I hate it. Therefore it sucks.

Seriously, the lack of good spellcasting, the *flavor* of the bardic songs, the lack of exceptional combat skills... The main thing I don't like is that the only reason to advance in bard after first level are for the paltry songs (the best one comes first), and to get that +1 per level to the bardic knowledge skill. That, and the concept of a charisma-based caster for the bard makes no sense. This is a class who is supposed to pick up his skills from various sources along the way. Yet, his spellcasting is inate? That utter rubbish, in my mind. That makes sense for sorcerers, but makes no sense for bards. The designers only did that because they wanted to reinforce the charisma aspect of the bard. Which is the other problem I have with the class - it's not a jack of all trades. It's specifically designed to be a manipulator/enchanter, and nothing more. If you're going to do that, you're better off playing a sorcerer specializing in enchantment spells.