Bards - What Makes them Good?
- Thread starter Starfox
- Start date
Klaus
First Post
And here's another way the bard shines: want more area control? Use the multiclass feats to get an area attack, and Combat Virtuoso to use Charisma for it (or skip the latter and go for one of the Sorcerer's area attacks).
eamon
Explorer
Bard multiclassing is a lot of fun; both mechanically and flavorwise, that's for sure. I don't think it's best used to address this particular weakness, but a decent area attack sure wouldn't hurt either, true enough ;-).
Klaus
First Post
I think the Bard multiclassing thing is best used to personalize the character. I'm also fond of taking the multiclassing feats that grant a benefit other than the "at-will as encounter" thing, like Barbarian, Fighter, Sorcerer, Warden...
Shouldn't that be among the cons rather than the pros?
Having your powers spread over multiple items just incurs an extra cost, in that you have to get multiple items (at a cost in gp or wish-list picks) and multiple boosting feats (expertise et al).
It is kind of like the A- vs V-class fallacy, but for items.
john112364
Explorer
I think what makes the bard good is the versitility. You have so many options. You want ranged? You got it. You want melee? You got it. You want skills? You got it. And the multi-classing is the ultimate in versitility. You want more healing? There are several classes that would give you some more healing. You could use multi-classing to boast your ranged attacks or melee attacks or implement attacks> And the list goes on.
Are they perfect? Of course not. Every class has to have some weaknesses. They lack a lot of area effects (as eamon posted) but that's fine because they aren't the only class with that weakness. (Though they may be the weakest arcane class in that respect.) And despite the versitility, you still can't do it all. You do need to focus on some aspects rather than all of them or you really will be to weak to operate effectively.
I guess you can tell I'm a fan of bards.
Are they perfect? Of course not. Every class has to have some weaknesses. They lack a lot of area effects (as eamon posted) but that's fine because they aren't the only class with that weakness. (Though they may be the weakest arcane class in that respect.) And despite the versitility, you still can't do it all. You do need to focus on some aspects rather than all of them or you really will be to weak to operate effectively.
I guess you can tell I'm a fan of bards.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Nope, because:
1/ You don't have to go both ways. You can do great as a Bard with just a wand or a Bard with just a longsword.
2/ You are one feat away from using your longsword as an implement.
3/ Or, you can pick up a type of magic item (Songblade or Songbow) and skip the feat.
Cheers, -- N
Orcus Porkus
First Post
cunning gnome charmer bard
I've posted this build on the WotC board but didn't get feedback. I guess everybody is too busy enchanting gnoll claws.
I think it's a pretty neat charmer, for an actual campaign that starts at level 16 soon, with experienced players who appreciate a cunning leader. I've never really played a bard before, nor have I seen one in action, so everything is pure theory for me now.
One of my main questions is how useful the "Advantage of Cunning" feat is. It slides an enemy who was adjacent to the "cunned" ally into that ally's former square. It doesn't have to be the enemy that missed.
Also, he is very much specialized on Will attacks. Since he has such strong attack bonuses, he is specifically going after high will opponents who are usually a lot safer.
I expect him to be in melee quite often, and thus make sure that the MBA and Guiding Strike are working OK.
Here is the original post:
This build can pull off 4 fun daily charm attacks at level 20 with effects a save ends.
He can stack save penalties from these sources (not all apply all the time):
In addition, this build enjoys a scaling bonus to attack and damage rolls on all those 4 daily attacks, and all other charm attacks he has, through Feyborn Charm (only for gnomes and Eladrin). Note that an attack bonus that scales with each tier is an absolute rarity in the game, since it breaks the balance. The chance to hit should always be the same until level 30 (in theory.) This cannot be underestimated. Look at other builds desperately trying to increase accuracy.
This feat makes gnome superior, since Eladrin have the "wrong" racial bonuses. Eladrin is still viable though, because DEX is by far more important for this build than INT, while INT is not a waste either (see below).
He gets another +1 attack bonus on charm attacks through Mystery Given Form (Entrancing Mystic PP), and doesn't expend the power if an encounter power misses all targets
With Psychic Lock, most attacks also deliver a -2 penalty to attack rolls (if the psychic keyword is present).
Irrefutable Armor grants a reroll with enhancement bonus on will attacks as a daily power.
He enjoys the following extra damage on most attacks:
Resplendent Gloves +2 since it's against Will
Feyborn Charm +1/+2/+3
Scrappy +1/+2/+3 when wielding a versatile weapon (works on the Cunning Longsword as implement)
Versatile weapon +1 when wielded 2-handed (I'm assuming this also works on implement attacks)
Maddening Action (Entrancing Mystic PP) deals 5 ongoing psychic damage with a save ends penalty whenever using an Action Point. Some of the save penalties apply on this auto-damaging effect.
He enjoys 2 defensive immediate reactions that work on being hit or missed, respectively. Fade Away works when gets hit, and Shroud of Adeptus (Entrancing Mystic power) works when he gets missed.
All the fine bonuses on attacks and damage and penalizing attack rolls also apply to his grand at-will, vicious mockery, which now deals an effective -4 penalty to the enemy's next attack roll. Ugh, that's like a daily power
For melee he has Guiding Strike as a viable option. Melee Basic Training (CHA) would be useful, but the feat slot is not really available. If it happens to often that Opportunity attacks etc. fail because of this I would train it.
All encounter attack powers have the charm and/or psychic keywords in order to benefit from Feyborn Charm and Psychic Lock.
The dailies:
Compulsion (Bard 5)
Allows to slide target 5 squares once on his turn (save ends). So if he fails, this can go on for a fun long time. Great for always putting him into the worst place ever (zones, defender, stinking clouds, over cliffs, his wife, etc.) The fellow also can't move on his own anymore.
Hideous Laughter (Bard 9)
Target can't take opportunity actions and suffers -2 (-4 with Psychic Lock) to attack rolls (save ends.) There is also an after effect, no opportunity actions (save ends). This is pretty good, for example at the start of a battle against a dragon before he pulls off his major attacks and action points.
Confusing Chorus (Bard 15)
At the start of the turn, the target makes a melee basic attack against creature of my choice as free action (save ends). This is kind of a cheap version of dominating, pretty good for the level, and can possibly go on until the end with your -8 saving throw penalty.
Ultimatum of the Third Order (Entrancing Mystic 20)
All enemies within 5 can pick between being stunned (end of next turn) or 10 ongoing psychic damage (save ends). Talking about giving DM's a headache.
As a little extra, this guy likes mobility, so he has Speed 6 despite Chain, and can walk on walls and liquid surfaces with full speed, and travel through forests like Tarzan did. (see items)
He keeps a couple of additional implements, to augment Vicious Mockery or gain additional reach, and the Friendship power.
Please note that as a house rule we get the expertise feat for free.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Pock, level 16
Gnome, Bard, Entrancing Mystic
Build: Cunning Bard
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Cunning
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
Pact Initiate: Pact Initiate (fey pact)
Background: Arcane Agent (Stealth class skill)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 22.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 16.
AC: 31 Fort: 26 Reflex: 29 Will: 30
HP: 111 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 27
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +20, Acrobatics +14, Diplomacy +20, Stealth +16, Religion +18, Bluff +20
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +10, Heal +9, History +14, Insight +9, Intimidate +15, Nature +9, Perception +9, Streetwise +15, Thievery +10, Athletics +9
FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Feyborn Charm
Level 2: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 4: Scrappy
Level 6: Toughness
Level 8: Pact Initiate
Level 10: Melee Training (Charisma)
Level 11: Psychic Lock
Level 12: Improved Cunning
Level 14: Paragon Defenses
Level 16: Majestic Rescue
Feat User Choice: Focused Expertise (Longsword)
POWERS
Bard at-will 1: Guiding Strike
Bard at-will 1: Vicious Mockery
Bard encounter 1: Shout of Triumph
Bard daily 1: Stirring Shout
Bard utility 2: Song of Courage
Bard encounter 3: Dissonant Strain
Bard daily 5: Compulsion
Bard utility 6: Glimpse the Future
Bard encounter 7: Deflect Attention
Bard daily 9: Hideous Laughter
Bard utility 10: Mantle of Unity
Bard encounter 13: Foolhardy Fighting (replaces Shout of Triumph)
Bard daily 15: Confusing Chorus (replaces Stirring Shout)
Bard utility 16: Haste
ITEMS
Ritual Book (2), Cunning Longsword +4, Curse Eye Tattoo (heroic tier), Master's Wand of Vicious Mockery +2, Oceanstrider Boots (paragon tier), Phrenic Crown (heroic tier), Amulet of Elegy +4, Resplendent Gloves (heroic tier), Bracers of Brachiation (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Camouflaged Clothing, Thieves' Tools, Irrefutable Darkhide Armor +4, Wand of Allure +1, Diamond Cincture (heroic tier), Distance Shortbow +1, Whistling Songbow Shortbow +1
RITUALS
Traveler's Chant, Glib Limerick, Control Weather, Fey Passage, Call of Friendship, Enchant Magic Item
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
I've posted this build on the WotC board but didn't get feedback. I guess everybody is too busy enchanting gnoll claws.
I think it's a pretty neat charmer, for an actual campaign that starts at level 16 soon, with experienced players who appreciate a cunning leader. I've never really played a bard before, nor have I seen one in action, so everything is pure theory for me now.
One of my main questions is how useful the "Advantage of Cunning" feat is. It slides an enemy who was adjacent to the "cunned" ally into that ally's former square. It doesn't have to be the enemy that missed.
Also, he is very much specialized on Will attacks. Since he has such strong attack bonuses, he is specifically going after high will opponents who are usually a lot safer.
I expect him to be in melee quite often, and thus make sure that the MBA and Guiding Strike are working OK.
Here is the original post:
This build can pull off 4 fun daily charm attacks at level 20 with effects a save ends.
He can stack save penalties from these sources (not all apply all the time):
- Cunning Longsword -3
- Phrenic Crown -1 on first save
- Mystic Rapture (Entrancing Mystic PP) -5 on charm if within 3 squares (-2 on all others). This penalty affects your allies' powers as well! A fantastic leader/defender feature indeed, but also requires you to be in the fray a lot. For this reason you need some options for melee as well.
- Curse Eye Tattoo (when using Action Point) -2
- Amulet of Elegy (daily) -4 on first save (penalty is the same as this neck slot item's enhancement bonus)
In addition, this build enjoys a scaling bonus to attack and damage rolls on all those 4 daily attacks, and all other charm attacks he has, through Feyborn Charm (only for gnomes and Eladrin). Note that an attack bonus that scales with each tier is an absolute rarity in the game, since it breaks the balance. The chance to hit should always be the same until level 30 (in theory.) This cannot be underestimated. Look at other builds desperately trying to increase accuracy.
This feat makes gnome superior, since Eladrin have the "wrong" racial bonuses. Eladrin is still viable though, because DEX is by far more important for this build than INT, while INT is not a waste either (see below).
He gets another +1 attack bonus on charm attacks through Mystery Given Form (Entrancing Mystic PP), and doesn't expend the power if an encounter power misses all targets
With Psychic Lock, most attacks also deliver a -2 penalty to attack rolls (if the psychic keyword is present).
Irrefutable Armor grants a reroll with enhancement bonus on will attacks as a daily power.
He enjoys the following extra damage on most attacks:
Resplendent Gloves +2 since it's against Will
Feyborn Charm +1/+2/+3
Scrappy +1/+2/+3 when wielding a versatile weapon (works on the Cunning Longsword as implement)
Versatile weapon +1 when wielded 2-handed (I'm assuming this also works on implement attacks)
Maddening Action (Entrancing Mystic PP) deals 5 ongoing psychic damage with a save ends penalty whenever using an Action Point. Some of the save penalties apply on this auto-damaging effect.
He enjoys 2 defensive immediate reactions that work on being hit or missed, respectively. Fade Away works when gets hit, and Shroud of Adeptus (Entrancing Mystic power) works when he gets missed.
All the fine bonuses on attacks and damage and penalizing attack rolls also apply to his grand at-will, vicious mockery, which now deals an effective -4 penalty to the enemy's next attack roll. Ugh, that's like a daily power
For melee he has Guiding Strike as a viable option. Melee Basic Training (CHA) would be useful, but the feat slot is not really available. If it happens to often that Opportunity attacks etc. fail because of this I would train it.
All encounter attack powers have the charm and/or psychic keywords in order to benefit from Feyborn Charm and Psychic Lock.
The dailies:
Compulsion (Bard 5)
Allows to slide target 5 squares once on his turn (save ends). So if he fails, this can go on for a fun long time. Great for always putting him into the worst place ever (zones, defender, stinking clouds, over cliffs, his wife, etc.) The fellow also can't move on his own anymore.
Hideous Laughter (Bard 9)
Target can't take opportunity actions and suffers -2 (-4 with Psychic Lock) to attack rolls (save ends.) There is also an after effect, no opportunity actions (save ends). This is pretty good, for example at the start of a battle against a dragon before he pulls off his major attacks and action points.
Confusing Chorus (Bard 15)
At the start of the turn, the target makes a melee basic attack against creature of my choice as free action (save ends). This is kind of a cheap version of dominating, pretty good for the level, and can possibly go on until the end with your -8 saving throw penalty.
Ultimatum of the Third Order (Entrancing Mystic 20)
All enemies within 5 can pick between being stunned (end of next turn) or 10 ongoing psychic damage (save ends). Talking about giving DM's a headache.
As a little extra, this guy likes mobility, so he has Speed 6 despite Chain, and can walk on walls and liquid surfaces with full speed, and travel through forests like Tarzan did. (see items)
He keeps a couple of additional implements, to augment Vicious Mockery or gain additional reach, and the Friendship power.
Please note that as a house rule we get the expertise feat for free.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Pock, level 16
Gnome, Bard, Entrancing Mystic
Build: Cunning Bard
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Cunning
Arcane Implement Proficiency: Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blade group)
Pact Initiate: Pact Initiate (fey pact)
Background: Arcane Agent (Stealth class skill)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 22.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 16.
AC: 31 Fort: 26 Reflex: 29 Will: 30
HP: 111 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 27
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +20, Acrobatics +14, Diplomacy +20, Stealth +16, Religion +18, Bluff +20
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +10, Heal +9, History +14, Insight +9, Intimidate +15, Nature +9, Perception +9, Streetwise +15, Thievery +10, Athletics +9
FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Feyborn Charm
Level 2: Arcane Implement Proficiency
Level 4: Scrappy
Level 6: Toughness
Level 8: Pact Initiate
Level 10: Melee Training (Charisma)
Level 11: Psychic Lock
Level 12: Improved Cunning
Level 14: Paragon Defenses
Level 16: Majestic Rescue
Feat User Choice: Focused Expertise (Longsword)
POWERS
Bard at-will 1: Guiding Strike
Bard at-will 1: Vicious Mockery
Bard encounter 1: Shout of Triumph
Bard daily 1: Stirring Shout
Bard utility 2: Song of Courage
Bard encounter 3: Dissonant Strain
Bard daily 5: Compulsion
Bard utility 6: Glimpse the Future
Bard encounter 7: Deflect Attention
Bard daily 9: Hideous Laughter
Bard utility 10: Mantle of Unity
Bard encounter 13: Foolhardy Fighting (replaces Shout of Triumph)
Bard daily 15: Confusing Chorus (replaces Stirring Shout)
Bard utility 16: Haste
ITEMS
Ritual Book (2), Cunning Longsword +4, Curse Eye Tattoo (heroic tier), Master's Wand of Vicious Mockery +2, Oceanstrider Boots (paragon tier), Phrenic Crown (heroic tier), Amulet of Elegy +4, Resplendent Gloves (heroic tier), Bracers of Brachiation (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Camouflaged Clothing, Thieves' Tools, Irrefutable Darkhide Armor +4, Wand of Allure +1, Diamond Cincture (heroic tier), Distance Shortbow +1, Whistling Songbow Shortbow +1
RITUALS
Traveler's Chant, Glib Limerick, Control Weather, Fey Passage, Call of Friendship, Enchant Magic Item
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Last edited:
On Puget Sound
First Post
Glimpse the Future. Last session our bard rolled a 20 on it (It lets him make 3 d20 rolls and keep the best one, and use it to replace an ally's roll sometime in the fight.) There was a LOT of discussion about when to use the guaranteed critical hit/ death save revival. The barbarian was going to get it on his rage, but he hit, and the question became shouldn't we save it to replace a miss? The ranger ended up using it for her daily.
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