Base Attack Innovation

[Chris_Nightwing]

So I was having a think, mostly inspired by the SWSE system and the idea that 4e will completely rearrange the maths of the game. That rearrangement means we should expect the variance of the modifiers and DCs across characters of the same level to be reduced from 3e. One way to achieve this is by increasing skills and defenses by the same amount across all classes and giving small one-off modifiers based on race, class and feats to differentiate characters.

Wouldn't it be just as easy to do this with Base Attack Bonus? Have all classes increase in their attack abilities equally. Differentiate them with one-off bonuses based on class, race, melee/ranged/magic, weapons, feats and so on. At 1st level this neatly offsets the one-off AC boost you have by having any armour - say +6 from scale/shield vs. a meagre +4 from strength/base attack that exists in 3e, going to Fighters having >50% chance of hitting in melee, Rangers >50% at range (haha) and Wizards >50% with magic.

Thoughts?

 

[Baby Samurai]

Well, I'm certainly hoping they at least get rid of 1/2 BAB, especially as I think Touch AC is going bye bye.

 

[Branduil]

It would be the most logical way to do it. The only possible issue is people multi-classing just to get a BAB bonus, so obviously you'd have to account for that somehow.

 

[Szatany]

It would be the most logical way to do it. The only possible issue is people multi-classing just to get a BAB bonus, so obviously you'd have to account for that somehow.

It could be spread over few first levels. For example, all classes have BAB equal to half their level, but fighter get a +1 class bonus for levels 1-5 and rogues only at levels 1-2. So if a 5th level rogue wants to increase his class bonus from +2 to +3, he needs to take 3 fighter levels (as class bonuses don't stack).

 

[Flynn]

Like Defense Bonuses under SWSE, I'd assume each class has a one-time offset, and when multiclassing, you take the biggest offset instead of adding them together.

At least, that would be my suggestion under such a system,
Flynn

 

[Kae'Yoss]

That rearrangement means we should expect the variance of the modifiers and DCs across characters of the same level to be reduced from 3e. One way to achieve this is by increasing skills and defenses by the same amount across all classes and giving small one-off modifiers based on race, class and feats to differentiate characters.

Let me note now that I don't like that system, at least not for D&D. I'm all for consolidating skills (so, say, hide and move silently will become sneak, tumble, balance and escape artist will become acrobatics, and so on), and maybe even getting rid of class skills (though maybe they'll steal Monte's focus idea instead), but there should be a difference between skilled and unskilled use of a skill, and that should not be a fixed number IMO.

Wouldn't it be just as easy to do this with Base Attack Bonus? Have all classes increase in their attack abilities equally. Differentiate them with one-off bonuses based on class, race, melee/ranged/magic, weapons, feats and so on. At 1st level this neatly offsets the one-off AC boost you have by having any armour - say +6 from scale/shield vs. a meagre +4 from strength/base attack that exists in 3e, going to Fighters having >50% chance of hitting in melee, Rangers >50% at range (haha) and Wizards >50% with magic.

Nah. BAB should be different. A fighter should be a lot better at hitting people with swords than a wizard.

I just wouldn't use BAB with any magic. Use caster level for that. So you throw a fireball at a guy? The 7th-level wizard will get +7 from his class to this magic attack roll. But should that same guy want to whack someone with his staff (for some reason, since we know that mages will get some eldritch blast-like attack), his class bonus should only be +3. Again, this assumes that your BAB is tied to level, not to HD (which I assume will be more than one on level one. McWoD for example gives you 4 HD at level 1, and BAB and saves are still tied to HD, meaning a werewolf starts with a BAB of +4).

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Nah. BAB should be different. A fighter should be a lot better at hitting people with swords than a wizard.

I just wouldn't use BAB with any magic. Use caster level for that. So you throw a fireball at a guy? The 7th-level wizard will get +7 from his class to this magic attack roll. But should that same guy want to whack someone with his staff (for some reason, since we know that mages will get some eldritch blast-like attack), his class bonus should only be +3. Again, this assumes that your BAB is tied to level, not to HD (which I assume will be more than one on level one. McWoD for example gives you 4 HD at level 1, and BAB and saves are still tied to HD, meaning a werewolf starts with a BAB of +4).

I'm entirely in agreement with this. What I've done is added a MAB (magic attack bonus) to the BAB. Each class gets one, even those without spellcasting to facilitate multi-classing. Pretty much the arcane equivalent to BAB, full progression casters get the best with partial progression classes (bard, ranger, etc) at median and no progression classes at worst. Any magical attack that needs an attack roll or to defeat a save uses the MAB rather than the BAB.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I just wouldn't use BAB with any magic. Use caster level for that. So you throw a fireball at a guy? The 7th-level wizard will get +7 from his class to this magic attack roll.

This is why multi-classing as a warrior-spellcaster sucks. A Ftr14/Wiz2 would have caster level of 2, but would be facing (in theory) 16th level opponents with a Defense rating of +16. His magic missile would be 100% useless.

One of the goals of 4e is to make "gish" builds useful and fun. A very good way to do that is to have a "magical attack" rating that's based on level/HD, not just caster level. I'm sure there are other ways to do it too, but using just caster level will not get you there.

 

[Reaper Steve]

I've been thinking about this since SWSE came out.
Here's my idea:
The base bonus for everything (attacks, defenses, skills, etc) equals your character level. (no more 1/2 or 3/4 level, stuff, no rounding up or down.)
Then you get one off bonuses for race, class, talents, and feats. Also incorporate the reroll mechanic from SWSE. The combination of these it what make your PC unique.

Then, making a char would be super easy:
OK, let's calc my attack bonus
5th level = +5
Fighter = +2
Strength 16 = +3
Skill Focus Longsword = +5
Total = +15
This would apply for everything...the bonus= level+race bonus+class bonus+ability bonus+other bonuses.

 

[Li Shenron]

Yeah, if they change it, probably it'll just be +1/level to any class, and then add a flat class bonus.