Base Save vs. Iron Will

[LiL KiNG]

I'm pretty sure I have this right but not sure where to find validation;

I have a player asking me if the Iron Will feat adds the +2 to Will saves to his Base Save score because it is an unnamed bonus, and this is his reasoning;

Base Attack and Save Bonuses​

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The base attack bonus and base save bonuses a character gets from class levels -- or that a creature gets from its type and Hit Dice -- are not true bonuses at all. (That's one reason why base attack and save bonuses aren't mentioned in the Bonus Types section in Chapter 2 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.) This is a situation where the language of the game gets a little muddy. Base attack and save bonuses are called "bonuses" strictly as a matter of convenience, mostly because you write them down and use them just like a regular bonus. You can treat a base attack bonus or a base save bonus just like an unnamed bonus, except that two or more base attack or save bonuses from different classes always stack. You cannot take a class twice and stack the base attack or base save bonuses from the class. Instead, you must add up all your levels in the class and use the appropriate base attack and base save bonuses for that level.​

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Unnamed Bonuses​

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A bonus that doesn't have a name stacks with anything except itself. This is always true, but it's sometimes hard to remember. For example, many feats provide unnamed bonuses, so don't panic when you read a feat description and it provides a bonus without a name. An unnamed bonus from a feat stacks with any other bonus; however you can't stack that unnamed bonus if you take the feat twice.​

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My interpretation is the Base score is derived from your class, Iron Will being an unnamed bonus just means it stacks as a Misc. Bonus entry and added to the overall Will save score along with the Base score, magic item bonus, racial bonus, etc.

I think he's trying to quickly find a way into either a feat or PrC that requires a base Will score of x, but not positive - and if he is right that would be helpful to know as well.

Any input on this would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

 

[Ashtagon]

If a base save of +4 Will is a prerequisite for a prestige class, that means the character must have that bonus strictly from class levels. The bonus from a feat, item, or anything does not count.

Similarly, having a Good Will save bonus in one of your classes does not mean you can qualify for a prestige class that requires the Iron Will feat. You'd actually have to have the feat if it is noted as a prerequisite.

 

[Duke Arioch]

Ashtagon has it right. Iron will is a BONUS to saves. If a PrC needs base save, that is the base save alone (gotten from class/classes).

 

[frankthedm]

You can treat a base attack bonus or a base save bonus just like an unnamed bonus

In this ruleset "A=B" does not mean "B=A".

 

[irdeggman]

A bonus by any other name is still a "bonus" and not a base.

So the player may be correct in having it be an "unamed bonus" but the fact that it is considered a "bonus" should flat out be the statement that it is not changing the base.

 

[the Jester]

A base score and an unnamed bonus are different.

Your player is trying to powergame, although he might not even know it.

 

[LiL KiNG]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Like I said I was pretty sure I had it right, and after some more discussion we now have it worked out how it should be.
He wasn't so much trying to munchkin it up as trying to find a way into Dark Speech faster as his chosen class uses a slow Will progression. He was in serious hopes that the Iron Will bonus would count towards that +5 base Will save requirement on it. He is actually a good player and great roleplayer, and I can understand his frustration with having a concept but having no way to achieve it on a low level build... or in this case until mid-to-high teens.

Dark Speech actually has some low level abilities that are kind of nice - but there is no way to get that feat until after those low level abilities are useless; unless you're dealing with lots of commoner NPC's...

 

[Dandu]

Dark Speech actually has some low level abilities that are kind of nice - but there is no way to get that feat until after those low level abilities are useless; unless you're dealing with lots of commoner NPC's...

YOU SIMPLE FOOL!

 

[LiL KiNG]

YOU SIMPLE FOOL!

That is a nice quick way into it, unfortunately for my player he is using a different base class that won't boost his base Will save so fast, or so nicely! I meant that comment in regards to him - but even still, I didn't realize it could be achieved so quickly either. I did figure it would be much faster using a couple classes with Good Will progression versus his chosen class's Slow Will progression.

 

[the Jester]

Perhaps there is a prestige class that would help him along the way? Even one level of something with a good Will will put him ahead the equivalent of 6 levels vs. a bad Will class all the way.