Base Save vs. Iron Will

[Vegepygmy]

He wasn't so much trying to munchkin it up as trying to find a way into Dark Speech faster as his chosen class uses a slow Will progression. He was in serious hopes that the Iron Will bonus would count towards that +5 base Will save requirement on it. He is actually a good player and great roleplayer, and I can understand his frustration with having a concept but having no way to achieve it on a low level build...

Sounds like a perfect candidate for Rule 0, to me: let Iron Will work the way he was hoping. I know nothing about this Dark Speech thing, but I doubt it's going to break the game.

 

[Dandu]

I know nothing about this Dark Speech thing, but I doubt it's going to break the game.

You doubt incorrectly.

 

[the Jester]

Sounds like a perfect candidate for Rule 0, to me: let Iron Will work the way he was hoping. I know nothing about this Dark Speech thing, but I doubt it's going to break the game.

Dark Speech is actually pretty intense.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Dark Speech is actually pretty intense.

Intensity isn't really the question, I'm thinking. Unless it's so intense that it's broken for anyone to have it, the question should be: is it somehow broken for a character class with poor Will save progression to have this ability, but not broken for a character class with a good Will save progression to have it?

If not, then why not allow the character with the poor Will save progression to "buy his way in" with the Iron Will feat?

(Again, I know nothing of the ability. If it's just plain broken, then it's just plain broken.)

 

[the Jester]

...why not allow the character with the poor Will save progression to "buy his way in" with the Iron Will feat?

Why have prerequisites at all if you're just going to waive them?

 

[Dandu]

Intensity isn't really the question, I'm thinking. Unless it's so intense that it's broken for anyone to have it, the question should be: is it somehow broken for a character class with poor Will save progression to have this ability, but not broken for a character class with a good Will save progression to have it?

If not, then why not allow the character with the poor Will save progression to "buy his way in" with the Iron Will feat?

(Again, I know nothing of the ability. If it's just plain broken, then it's just plain broken.)

Read the link I posted above.

 

[Rabulias]

The prerequisites in the Dark Speech entry on Fiendish Codex I p.85 specify "Will save bonus +5" instead of "Base Will save +5," the proper prereq as indicated in Table 4-1 on p.84.

Perhaps this is a source of confusion for the player?

 

[LiL KiNG]

The prerequisites in the Dark Speech entry on Fiendish Codex I p.85 specify "Will save bonus +5" instead of "Base Will save +5," the proper prereq as indicated in Table 4-1 on p.84.

Perhaps this is a source of confusion for the player?

Ah, see that is something... I don't know if anyone in our party has Fiendish Codex I (or II for that matter).
However, he is using the Book of Vile Darkness which specifies; Base Will save bonus +5, 15 Int, 15 Cha.

I'll have to check out the FCI thing though - thank you for the possible work around.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Why have prerequisites at all if you're just going to waive them?

I didn't suggest waiving the prerequisite; I suggested allowing a substitution (spending a feat on Iron Will instead of multi-classing)...a concept that was encouraged by the designers when prestige classes first appeared in 3e.

But the answer to your question is: to make the game more fun. (The implicit corollary being that if the proposed rule change wouldn't make the game more fun, don't do it.)