basic attack replacement & charge

Ahrimon

Bourbon and Dice
I want to make sure I'm understanding something correctly.

So, I'm weilding an avalanche hammer that gives me +1[W] when I charge:
When you charge an enemy and hit with a melee basic attack using this weapon, the attack deals 1[W] extra damage

Being a barbarian, I have howling strike:
When charging, you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack.

So I charge, switch my basic attack from the charge to howling strike and hit. The way I'm reading it is that I would no longer qualify for the avalanche hammer bonus since I didn't hit with a melee basic attack. I hit with howling strike.

Or would I still get the hammer bonus since it was a basic attack to begin with even though I swapped it out for howling strike?

Thanks
 

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You have hit on another one of 4e's ambiguities.

I believe that when they say "in place of" they mean "do this instead". The Howling Strike does not become a basic attack, it takes its place.

In other contexts, such as Magic Missile, the phrase they use is "you can use this power as a ranged basic attack".

It's unfortunate. The Avalanche Hammer is otherwise an excellent item.
 


This has been endlessly debated in a number of different contexts. Some people theorize there is a difference between 'counts as a basic attack' and 'in place of a basic attack' (there are some minor variations of both types of wording).

IMHO it is far too much hair splitting. If you use an attack as a basic attack with a replacement feature, then it acts like a basic attack and gets treated as one (this is also consistent with the standard interpretations of certain item powers and the way weaplements have always worked).

You may want to check the PHB1 FAQ on this topic. I think there was an entry in there that addressed this in some fashion. I don't honestly recall what they said or if it is exactly applicable to this case. I also seem to recall it didn't completely settle the question either.
 

This has been endlessly debated in a number of different contexts. Some people theorize there is a difference between 'counts as a basic attack' and 'in place of a basic attack' (there are some minor variations of both types of wording).

IMHO it is far too much hair splitting. If you use an attack as a basic attack with a replacement feature, then it acts like a basic attack and gets treated as one (this is also consistent with the standard interpretations of certain item powers and the way weaplements have always worked).

You may want to check the PHB1 FAQ on this topic. I think there was an entry in there that addressed this in some fashion. I don't honestly recall what they said or if it is exactly applicable to this case. I also seem to recall it didn't completely settle the question either.

That's a valid opinion, just not the way I read the wording. If there is an official answer to the contrary I will be happy to withdraw my claim, and more likely to play a Barbarian again in the future.
 

It might be splitting hairs, but I think lean more towards the doesn't work because of the "in place of" rather than "as a" wording. Otherwise one could argue that bracer of mighty striking and the like would also apply to charges and other powers. When it doubt I usually analyze the wording, but I like to bounce it off a few people here to get a feel for any type of cummunity concesus.

Of course, I also beleive that swift charge doesn't count toward the number of free atacks in a turn because it's not itself an attack.

Mom always said I should have been a lawyer. :lol:

Thanks for the input everyone.
 

That's a valid opinion, just not the way I read the wording. If there is an official answer to the contrary I will be happy to withdraw my claim, and more likely to play a Barbarian again in the future.

I'd accept either possibility as the official ruling. My feeling always was it seemed kind of arbitrary which items used which wording. It isn't like Avalanche Hammer is so much different from Thundergod Weapon that it had to have a nerf. Yet that may well be the technically correct way of playing it. Never had a really highly charge optimized character in play with our group though, so maybe there are aspects of this I'm missing.
 

For what it's worth, the seeker paragon feat "Primal Eye" adds their attribute bonus to their damage roll on ranged basic attacks. The current CB adds it to their at-wills that can be used as basic attacks as well (Guardian Harrier for example), which seems to me to be as close to an official stance as we're likely to get.
 

For what it's worth, the seeker paragon feat "Primal Eye" adds their attribute bonus to their damage roll on ranged basic attacks. The current CB adds it to their at-wills that can be used as basic attacks as well (Guardian Harrier for example), which seems to me to be as close to an official stance as we're likely to get.

Sure, but now you are back to the "as a" vs. "in place of a" distinction. But it's nice to see that the CB at least does it that way in the case normally considered more clear cut.
 

For what it's worth, the seeker paragon feat "Primal Eye" adds their attribute bonus to their damage roll on ranged basic attacks. The current CB adds it to their at-wills that can be used as basic attacks as well (Guardian Harrier for example), which seems to me to be as close to an official stance as we're likely to get.

Character builder and its calculations is not and has never been a rules reference. Relying on its calculations as 'rules advice or official stance' has never been a good idea.

The reason 'use in place of' is different than 'counts as a' is because they... well... mean different things.

The first means the addition of an option where it did not exist before. Howling Strike is not a basic attack, you cannot use it with Commander's Strike, the only thing it does is allow you to use the power Howling Strike instead of the power Melee Basic Attack at the end of a charge. Normally you can only Melee Basic Attack at that time, so you need an exception that states 'You can use this other thing as well.' That doesn't means that other thing counts as the original thing; as an analogy if you have the option to replace your Combat Superiority with Combat Agility, that does not mean that feats that modify or require Combat Superiority necessarily work with Combat Agility. Replacement is replacement, not equivocation, in Fourth edition.

Contrast this with Eldritch Strike. This counts as a melee basic attack, that means that any time you can use a melee basic attack, you can use this power. Because it counts as one, anything that modifies the Melee Basic Attack power, also modifies this. Why? Because the power says flat out that it counts as it. This is completely different than the first case. Equivocation IS Equivocation.

The reason it works this way is because of 'Specific versus General'. If you have a game feature that changes how Basic Melee Attack works, you need a more specific rule to make that game feature affect other things. In the cast of Howling Strike, it tells you that the game feature 'charge' interacts with it, in the same manner that charge interacts with melee basic attack. It does not tell you that your handy item that boosts melee basic attack damage on a charge applies to Howling strike--it does not provide an exception to that game feature. Eldritch Strike, on the other hand, is less targetted. It tells you that it counts as a melee basic attack, and further, it does not state any exceptions to this. That means that any game feature that refers to Melee Basic Attack is excepted by it, and thus those game features will now react to it just as they do Melee Basic Attack.

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tl;dr: Howling Strike only changes what powers the game rule 'Charge' interracts with, it does not in any way affect how weapons, or Avalanche Hammer in specific interacts with Howling Strike. Eldritch Strike changes how all game rules apply to it, and therefore DOES affect weapons, Avalanche Strike in this case.

Contrast this with a theoretical power that stated '...can be used as a melee basic attack when charging.' That means that it DOES interract with Avalanche Hammer, because it IS a melee basic attack at that time, and therefore Avalanche Hammer (and anything else modifying melee basic attacks) can interact with it freely.
 
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