Xyrlove Woodsoul
First Post
Do enemies provide other enemies cover when it comes to close and Area attacks?
Basic Question About Cover
- Thread starter Xyrlove Woodsoul
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AbdulAlhazred
Legend
No, only against ranged and melee attacks.
Aulirophile
First Post
No... there is no such thing as ally cover from melee attacks (granted it only comes up when you have reach). Rules are in the DMG for determining it, c/ped below.
Determining Cover for Melee Attacks
Defender’s Burden: The target of a melee attack has to prove that it has cover. That proof consists of a line between the attacker and the defender that is blocked by a solid object.
Corner to Corner: The defender has cover if an imaginary line from a corner of the attacker’s space to a corner of the defender’s space is blocked.
Getting Technical: If you need to be extremely precise, choose a square the attacker occupies and a square the defender occupies. Draw an imaginary line from every corner of the attacker’s space to every corner of the defender’s space. If even one line is obstructed, the defender has cover. (A line hat runs parallel right along a wall isn’t blocked.)
Superior Cover: Only specific terrain features (such as grates and arrow slits) grant superior cover from melee attacks.
Attacker’s Burden: For ranged attacks, the attacker has to prove that he has a clear shot. That proof consists of one corner in his space that has clear lines to every corner of the target’s space.
Choose a Corner: The attacker chooses one corner of a square he occupies, and draws imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the defender occupies. If none of those lines are blocked by a solid object or an enemy creature, the attacker has a clear shot. The defender doesn’t have cover. (A line that runs parallel right along a wall isn’t blocked.)
Cover: If you can’t find a clear shot, the target has cover. No matter which corner in your space you choose, one or two lines from that corner to every corner in the defender’s space are blocked.
Superior Cover: The defender has superior cover if no matter which corner in your space you choose and no matter which square of the target’s space you choose, three or four lines are blocked. If four lines are blocked from every corner, you can’t target the defender.
Determining Cover for Close and Area Attacks
Like Ranged Attacks: You determine cover for these attacks in the same way as for ranged attacks, with two exceptions:
Origin, Not Attacker: Treat the origin square of the effect as the attacker’s square.
Creatures Aren’t Cover: Creatures don’t provide cover against close and area attacks.
Determining Cover for Melee Attacks
Defender’s Burden: The target of a melee attack has to prove that it has cover. That proof consists of a line between the attacker and the defender that is blocked by a solid object.
Corner to Corner: The defender has cover if an imaginary line from a corner of the attacker’s space to a corner of the defender’s space is blocked.
Getting Technical: If you need to be extremely precise, choose a square the attacker occupies and a square the defender occupies. Draw an imaginary line from every corner of the attacker’s space to every corner of the defender’s space. If even one line is obstructed, the defender has cover. (A line hat runs parallel right along a wall isn’t blocked.)
Superior Cover: Only specific terrain features (such as grates and arrow slits) grant superior cover from melee attacks.
Attacker’s Burden: For ranged attacks, the attacker has to prove that he has a clear shot. That proof consists of one corner in his space that has clear lines to every corner of the target’s space.
Choose a Corner: The attacker chooses one corner of a square he occupies, and draws imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the defender occupies. If none of those lines are blocked by a solid object or an enemy creature, the attacker has a clear shot. The defender doesn’t have cover. (A line that runs parallel right along a wall isn’t blocked.)
Cover: If you can’t find a clear shot, the target has cover. No matter which corner in your space you choose, one or two lines from that corner to every corner in the defender’s space are blocked.
Superior Cover: The defender has superior cover if no matter which corner in your space you choose and no matter which square of the target’s space you choose, three or four lines are blocked. If four lines are blocked from every corner, you can’t target the defender.
Determining Cover for Close and Area Attacks
Like Ranged Attacks: You determine cover for these attacks in the same way as for ranged attacks, with two exceptions:
Origin, Not Attacker: Treat the origin square of the effect as the attacker’s square.
Creatures Aren’t Cover: Creatures don’t provide cover against close and area attacks.
Xyrlove Woodsoul
First Post
Thanks. Ah, it was the last sentence. I never read the last sentence. But that's what I thought, but I was reading a review on the Paragon feat, Expansive Burst, and the commentator said it's a good feat to take, because enemies often provide cover for other enemie's with area attacks, and I was like wtf? And the author of the page does seem to know what he is talking about, insofar as all the other stuff.
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DarkLord Of DForce
First Post
Hmm, so how does that work now if the defender is invisible, or roled for stealth, or both?
(for ranged attacks)
(for ranged attacks)
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
If the defender is invisible then he's got total concealment and anyone using a ranged or melee attack against him suffers a -5. If he also had allies in the LoE of the attacker that wouldn't help him since you can only get the best sort of cover/concealment, they don't stack.
If the target is hidden then the attacker needs to guess his location and attack a square. The penalty on this attack is still -5, assuming the attacker guesses right.
In no case will invisibility or stealth help you against any kind of AoE, close or area burst or blast.
Xeterog
Explorer
Cover and concealment do stack. They are penalties and are untyped at that. Now, cover doesn't stack with cover or with Superior Cover (so only apply either a -2 or a -5, don't combine them if someone has both somehow) and Concealment doesn't stack with Concealment or Total Concealment.
But a target can definitely benefit from both Cover and Concealment. Also note that cover can affect area/close attacks (tho it is often easy enough to position the area to avoid the cover), so someone with cover and concealment from an area/close attack would only benefit from the cover, not the concealment.
But a target can definitely benefit from both Cover and Concealment. Also note that cover can affect area/close attacks (tho it is often easy enough to position the area to avoid the cover), so someone with cover and concealment from an area/close attack would only benefit from the cover, not the concealment.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I'm not so sure about that. Cover essentially IS concealment plus some. If you have cover you are concealed, same for superior cover/total concealment. You can't be MORE concealed than totally concealed, so if you have concealment plus total cover I think the result is you have total cover and the concealment is irrelevant. This isn't exactly spelled out in so many words anywhere, so it may be arguable. In any case its a corner case and the DM has control of any of these sorts of environmental factor penalties. Depending on the situation it might make sense to combine them but in general the idea is things don't generally get worse than the worst difficulty you face. Beyond -5 things generally start to get pointless.
I would assume cover and concealment can stack for the following reason:
You are invisable, and you have allies in front of you.
Now if a monster wants to shoot past your allies to get you he should take the -5 for Total Concealment (Invis, not hidden - I'm assuming so he knows where to shoot towards) and -2 for Cover for having to shoot around your allies. Basically he not only guesses where exactly in your square you are (how I envision the -5) but has less choices for "where in the square" he can aim if he wants your allies not to get in the way.
You are invisable, and you have allies in front of you.
Now if a monster wants to shoot past your allies to get you he should take the -5 for Total Concealment (Invis, not hidden - I'm assuming so he knows where to shoot towards) and -2 for Cover for having to shoot around your allies. Basically he not only guesses where exactly in your square you are (how I envision the -5) but has less choices for "where in the square" he can aim if he wants your allies not to get in the way.
Kingreaper
Adventurer
A mesh grating with holes in grants superior cover.
So does a magical wall of force
Does it grant concealment? Hell no, I can see right through it.
A paper wall grants superior concealment.
So does a load of smoke.
Does it grant cover? Hell no, I can shoot right through it.
Cover=/=concealment.
Superior cover means I'll need a trick-shot to hit them.
Total concealment means I'm effectively firing blind.
A trick-shot is much harder if you're firing blind.
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