JoeGKushner
Adventurer
Saw an Osseum price change due to Bastion going black and white. ?
Bastion in Black and White?
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
thundershot
Adventurer
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's one of the best things, IMO, about Bastion's books!!!! I love glossy full color goodness. I've never had a problem with the price...
I hope that this isn't true... sometimes the full color books are just what tips me in the direction to buy books I would never buy otherwise.
Chris
That's one of the best things, IMO, about Bastion's books!!!! I love glossy full color goodness. I've never had a problem with the price...
I hope that this isn't true... sometimes the full color books are just what tips me in the direction to buy books I would never buy otherwise.
Chris
drnuncheon
Explorer
JoeGKushner said:
How much of one?
If they're going down to about $15/book, I know I'll be more inclined to buy them. As it is, I really have to agonize over each one, and I'm sure I've missed some good ones (Alchemy & Herbalists, perhaps) because I couldn't justify the outlay.
J
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Sir Osis of Liver
Explorer
That's kinda sucky, if it's true. I can't imagine the Oathbound books without color. Err.
thundershot
Adventurer
What they ought to do is, after a book has been out for a while (in full glossy color), put out a cheaper b&w version of that book ($14.99 like FFG's books of similar size). Make everyone happy...
Chris
Chris
Jim Butler
Explorer
Greetings, all!
First and foremost, it's true. Bastion will be going to black and white on a number of our releases. We will still be doing some color products (like Talisman Studio's imprints, plus an upcoming artbook), but overall you'll see less full-color and more black & white.
Why the change? Well, it's a matter of economics, basically.
Printing in full-color costs roughly 3-4 times the amount it costs to print in black & white. So, while other companies are paying their printer $2,000 for their print run, our bills to the printer run around $8,000.
And the short answer is that charging a few dollars more for full-color just doesn't work unless retailers and customers are buying more of the product because it's full color. That's not the case; retailers and consumers seem to buy about the same number of our releases as other d20 companies of similar size.
Remember that publishers only get around 40% of the retail price (and that money has to go to pay the printer, designer, editor, artists, typesetter, etc.). If the publisher is using a third-party company to handles its sales (like Osseum, Impressions, etc.), then drop that number to 30%.
So, let's play make-believe for a second and calculate some numbers out:
Product Sales: 1,500 copies @ $24.95 retail
Wholesale Price (that's what we get paid): $7.49
Big Check from Osseum/Impressions: $11,235.00
Expenses:
Designer: $2,400 (80,000 words at .03/word)
Editor: $1,000
Artists: $1,200.00
Printer: $7,500.00
Typesetter: $250.00
Advertising (1 ad in Dragon): $2,500
Total Expenses: $14,850.00
Net Profit/Loss: (-$3,615.00)
So, even if we take out all of the advertising, the product is still losing money. And we haven't even started paying for all those other little expenses that companies have to pay for (like Gen Con booths, state and local taxes, hotel and airline reservations to big shows, etc.). And what about me? Shouldn't I get paid in here somewhere?
What it all boils down to is that I'm making changes to make sure that Bastion will be making game products for a long time to come. It doesn't mean that we're not going to be doing color products any more, only that we're going to be more selective about what we use color for. We're going to continue to be vigilant about adhering to the d20 rules and hunt down all the typo and grmmar demons that we can. So, while we'll be going to black and white, the solid rules designs you've come to expect from us will not be compromised.
First and foremost, it's true. Bastion will be going to black and white on a number of our releases. We will still be doing some color products (like Talisman Studio's imprints, plus an upcoming artbook), but overall you'll see less full-color and more black & white.
Why the change? Well, it's a matter of economics, basically.
Printing in full-color costs roughly 3-4 times the amount it costs to print in black & white. So, while other companies are paying their printer $2,000 for their print run, our bills to the printer run around $8,000.
And the short answer is that charging a few dollars more for full-color just doesn't work unless retailers and customers are buying more of the product because it's full color. That's not the case; retailers and consumers seem to buy about the same number of our releases as other d20 companies of similar size.
Remember that publishers only get around 40% of the retail price (and that money has to go to pay the printer, designer, editor, artists, typesetter, etc.). If the publisher is using a third-party company to handles its sales (like Osseum, Impressions, etc.), then drop that number to 30%.
So, let's play make-believe for a second and calculate some numbers out:
Product Sales: 1,500 copies @ $24.95 retail
Wholesale Price (that's what we get paid): $7.49
Big Check from Osseum/Impressions: $11,235.00
Expenses:
Designer: $2,400 (80,000 words at .03/word)
Editor: $1,000
Artists: $1,200.00
Printer: $7,500.00
Typesetter: $250.00
Advertising (1 ad in Dragon): $2,500
Total Expenses: $14,850.00
Net Profit/Loss: (-$3,615.00)
So, even if we take out all of the advertising, the product is still losing money. And we haven't even started paying for all those other little expenses that companies have to pay for (like Gen Con booths, state and local taxes, hotel and airline reservations to big shows, etc.). And what about me? Shouldn't I get paid in here somewhere?
What it all boils down to is that I'm making changes to make sure that Bastion will be making game products for a long time to come. It doesn't mean that we're not going to be doing color products any more, only that we're going to be more selective about what we use color for. We're going to continue to be vigilant about adhering to the d20 rules and hunt down all the typo and grmmar demons that we can. So, while we'll be going to black and white, the solid rules designs you've come to expect from us will not be compromised.
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Jim Butler
Explorer
Re: Re: Bastion in Black and White?
I really wish $15/book would work, but it won't. It must be time to play make-believe again... ;-)
Product Sales: 1,500 copies @ $14.95 retail
Wholesale Price (that's what we get paid): $4.49
Big Check from Osseum/Impressions: $6,735.00
Expenses:
Designer: $2,400 (80,000 words at .03/word)
Editor: $1,000
Artists: $800.00
Printer: $2,500.00
Typesetter: $250.00
Total Expenses: $6,950.00
Net Profit/Loss: (-$215.00)
Wizards of the Coast can't afford to do 96-pages at $14.95; there's no way smaller publishers can do so unless they want to start cutting corners someplace (do all the writing themselves and not get paid for it; print on newsprint; not have an editor; etc.). None of those choices are viable long-term solutions to running a successful business.
drnuncheon said:
I really wish $15/book would work, but it won't. It must be time to play make-believe again... ;-)
Product Sales: 1,500 copies @ $14.95 retail
Wholesale Price (that's what we get paid): $4.49
Big Check from Osseum/Impressions: $6,735.00
Expenses:
Designer: $2,400 (80,000 words at .03/word)
Editor: $1,000
Artists: $800.00
Printer: $2,500.00
Typesetter: $250.00
Total Expenses: $6,950.00
Net Profit/Loss: (-$215.00)
Wizards of the Coast can't afford to do 96-pages at $14.95; there's no way smaller publishers can do so unless they want to start cutting corners someplace (do all the writing themselves and not get paid for it; print on newsprint; not have an editor; etc.). None of those choices are viable long-term solutions to running a successful business.
drnuncheon
Explorer
How embarassing! I was comparing with Mongoose's EA books. They must use a thicker paper than the Bastion stuff, because they're 64 pages for what looked like the same spine width. (The secret to perceived quantity seems to be thicker paper.)
I find it interesting that sales are roughly the same for books with such different price points, and I'm even more interested to find out what will happen to Bastion sales with the B&W stuff. Hopefully, it will increase as the current customers continue to buy, and the marginal folks become more likely to pick something up.
J
I find it interesting that sales are roughly the same for books with such different price points, and I'm even more interested to find out what will happen to Bastion sales with the B&W stuff. Hopefully, it will increase as the current customers continue to buy, and the marginal folks become more likely to pick something up.
J
Jim Butler
Explorer
drnuncheon said:
Bastion's color products use high-quality matte paper that is thinner then most of the regular uncoated paper.
One of the things I've learned in this industry is that a lower price doesn't increase sales. Gamers just don't make decisions based on retail price; they make them based on a number of factors related to their gaming needs.
2WS-Steve
First Post
Jim Butler said:
They really don't and I notice that when I look for a book retail price isn't the deciding factor for me either. I think this is one of the quirks of entertainment products. Money is only part of the expense; the major investment is the customer's time and that book, whether fiction or gaming, needs to be worth the hours one puts into reading it.
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