Battle Engineer for Avengers?

[mneme]

I'm not sure I agree re the AP ability and Radiant Servant (warpriest, yes, though it's highly variant; +1 to hit and 1d6 is -usually- going to lose to 5 damage [and it'll get worse over time, as the warpriest damage scales], but if you assume you're going to attack 3 times on a nova round ( AP attack, standard action attack, minor action attack), +1 to hit and 1d6 damage 3 times might beat your level in ongoing damage--at least until you factor radiant vulnerability in or get up to epic levels [of course, when you hit epic the crit feature becomes pointless, and even in Paragon, given that I'm talking LFR, I can load up with Lucky Shot cards]

Also, I think the U12 will also work with the level 11 class feature (useful when there's a multiattacker in the party who's a better recipient than you are; you're often the best recipient, but not always).

But yeah, it's basically a question of superior powers vs superior features -- which IMEX is -heavily- dependent on how long you expect fights to take. OTOH, there's something to be said for a striker dipping for -superior- limited leading capability (ok, RS is a dip for weak leading and superior crowd control, if not as superior as it used to be), not to mention getting good power without doing the same thing everyone else is doing (though the call of Radiance increases the higher level you go).

 

[Herschel]

Hershel, the problem with Leading Strike (and why I've never managed to use it yet, in about 3 sessions of play since I retrained to it at 10th level...no, I've used it once, I think) is that it's very conditional:

1. You have to hit.
2. There has to be an ally adjacent to you or the target.
3. The monster has to survive to their turn.
4. They have to hit.
5. If the extra damage would have been enough to take down the monster on your attack, it's completely wasted on their attack.

The result, given that set, means that Leading Strike with an Int bonus of, say, +4 does a hell of a lot less extra damage than 1d6 -- even if you assume that there's always , it's closer to 2 extra damage (and +1.5 dpr, wheras a d6 would be +2.62 dpr for an Avenger with her oath on). This is why I think that Greater Magic Weapon (+Wis or Con to hit and damage to all adjacent allies for 1 round as an effect, and an Int+3 2W weapon attack) is an amazing encounter power, even for a "striker", wheras Leading Strike is..ok. I'll probably retrain back to Overwhelming Strike when I get a chance; the shift/slide does more damage than that enough of the time to matter.

Who/what is the defender? (or is there a rogue). I work in concert with the Warden in the game I play one in and defenders tend to be pretty darned accurate. He generally blocks one side making it easier for me to oath roll and I can pump his damage up to about mine. It's a LOT less conditional than the retribution schtick that almost never got used.

 

[Felon]

Avengers really do have a paucity of MOAR DAMAGE at wills -- but then, the class is conceived as striker with a large does of controller, rather than the kind of striker that a ranger is.

Heh, true. And they have a lot of defender in them too--sky-high defense, HP, abilities that mark or otherwise make the avenger the most appealing target. And like divine classes in general, there's also that leaderish element where they give out bonuses others can use.

 

[TarionzCousin]

... and even in Paragon, given that I'm talking LFR, I can load up with Lucky Shot cards]

Erm, what are Lucky Shot cards and are they available outside of LFR?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Hammers are a different matter. I guess I could do a mordenkrad, but the brutal property is wasted on a crit, and 2d6 happens to have the same maximum number as 1d12. So, I have to decide if I want orgasmic crits, or attack diversity. Decisions, decisions...

Bear in mind that you're not actually going to be critting so often as to make brutal worthless. Yes, you have two chances, but it's still not like every third attack.

I personally prefer the Executioner's Axe, and don't really worry much about the implement (we've had enough drop anyway).

Brad

 

[mneme]

Hershel: It's not a matter of giving people Leading Strike bonuses only to miss (though that -is- a concern in terms of weighting that option over just charging) -- but that I'm very rarely statically standing in place and throwing out at-wills. As such, most of the time I'm better off charging than walking up and dropping Leading Strike (particularly since often enough, I need the extra movement off the charge to get to my next victim). As it is, fights tend to be over fast enough that I try to make sure I use a daily in each fight, as if I save them up for a nova in the final fight of a mod, I'm likely to be ending the adventure with stuff unused to no purpose.

Felon: It's true. I mean, -all- avengers have at least a little leader in them, due to the amazing Divine Guidance (which, I'll note, almost always has a higher average damage than RRoT when you get a chance to invoke it -- at least on an encounter power or striker attack. My RRoT does an average of 18 if it hits (can't quite peg it at a .75 hit chance, as there's a strong temptation to use post-attack buffs if a RRoT encounter power misses; only 12 on a crit), but there are plenty of attacks that do an average of a lot more than that (including hit chance), so rerolling them is better.

One can make a good argument that most of the "controlling" Avengers do is really leading in disguise, really. Teleporting a mess of enemies -could- be used to get a 50% chance of knocking them prone and inflicting some falling damage on them (and sometimes that's the right choice; against minions, for instance) -- or it could be used to group them up so the controller gets to be more awesome, drop them next to the Rain of Steel-running Fighter, etc. Teleporting or shoving -one- guy is almost always a leaderish move; you drop him into the donut of death and bet against him being around on your next turn. And yeah, while they don't have much healing (except, oddly, there paragon paths) for other people [self-healing is a defender thing, and they've got a fair amount of that], there are a fair number of ways to hand out bonuses. Not to mention defense debuffs like Menacing Presence

Re Avenger Defender -- aside from Oath Strike (which -is- nice) and the pseudo-defender aspects of the Pursuing Avenger, there isn't much. Mostly, Avengers are really sturdy strikers. They're excellent harriers, though, which is kindof a defender job--and ends up tending to use their defensive abilities nicely.

TarionzCousin, Lucky Shot is a reward card in LFR, so yeah, not available outside of LFR. Each (and you can carry up to 2 reward cards into a mod in low heroic, 3 in high heroic, and 5 in low paragon) lets you turn a 19 on a die into a critical once per module. (yes, this is kind of obscene, but it's a level playing field, since after a year, all new reward cards for the year are available to all lfr players in a pdf. Other cards let you reroll an at-will attack with a given power source (different one for each power source except Shadow), or turn a failed skill check into 10 on the die. So for LFR purposes you can get around needing an expanded crit range before epic by packing Lucky Shots.

Edit: The problem with Jagged (and why I don't find it that exciting) is that if you crit often and/or don't apply have save ends penalties, it doesn't do as much reliable damage as dice -- as ongoing damage doesn't stack and the the -best- average case on ongoing without penalties is that it lasts 2 rounds (and Elites and Solos are worse). And damage-later is worse than damage-now. So you're getting a better crit range at a cost of your crits being worse -- a worthwhile trade if you're optimizing for ongoing damage and save-ends effects. For a controller avenger build who's all about the save-ends effects, it might very well be worthwhile (maybe. Cunning is nerfed, after all, but still is probably usually better for you), but for most Avengers, not so much. And RRoT is an anti-combo, of course.

 

[chitzk0i]

oops, nvm.