Battle standard on a wagon

[Saeviomagy]

It's going to last 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter.

If you do it outside of an encounter, it will expire before your next encounter begins.

 

[radja]

I would rule the standard is considered 'planted' as long as it remains stationary relative to the battle field. if the battlefield is a ship: no problem. if you plant it on your cart: no problem... as long as the cart remains stationary. you could even plant it in an earth genasi, if it stays still enough (i.e. is unconscious or dead).

 

[Wormwood]

Agreed---as long as the action economy remains (Standard to activate, Standard to remove), then I see no problem with planting it on a cart.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, I'm not sure that satisfies all of the concerns with that tactic - after all, one (perhaps the biggest) balancing element of standards is that they can't be moved once placed... so I would be reluctant to allow planting on a cart without offering a significant opportunity cost to moving the wagon - perhaps it costs a standard instead of a move, or requires the mover to put away their weapons/shield, or the mover grants combat advantage - or something.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, I'm not sure that satisfies all of the concerns with that tactic - after all, one (perhaps the biggest) balancing element of standards is that they can't be moved once placed... so I would be reluctant to allow planting on a cart without offering a significant opportunity cost to moving the wagon - perhaps it costs a standard instead of a move, or requires the mover to put away their weapons/shield, or the mover grants combat advantage - or something.

An opportunity cost to move the wagon is pretty much a given. And if just that you need to hire someone to do it, and that someone might not survive the fireballs lobbed around on your battlefield.

 

[Nifft]

Agreed---as long as the action economy remains (Standard to activate, Standard to remove), then I see no problem with planting it on a cart.

Plus, of course, the fact that moving the item ends the magical effect. So it works fine on a cart, so long as that cart is stationary.

Otherwise, you haven't preserved the action economy at all. You've instead added "move action: instead of being stationary, you move and the zone follows you" to the item's power.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Wormwood]

Plus, of course, the fact that moving the item ends the magical effect. So it works fine on a cart, so long as that cart is stationary.

Of course. You move it, you lose it.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm not sure that's what the rules say, though... sure, if you spend the standard action to pull it out of the ground and carry it off, that ends the effect, but the rules really don't deal with dynamic terrain.

By your logic (you move it, you loose it), planting it on a moving object (one of the trains from eberon, a boat, or a floating rock in the elemental chaos) would have the effect end as soon as the flag moves. Or, if you plant it, and then the ground/terrain unexpectedly moves (plant it in a teleportation circle, again on a floating rock, or if there is a mud slide). Personally, I don't believe the effect should automatically end in such circumstances.

 

[Nifft]

I'm not sure that's what the rules say, though... sure, if you spend the standard action to pull it out of the ground and carry it off, that ends the effect, but the rules really don't deal with dynamic terrain.

By your logic (you move it, you loose it), planting it on a moving object (one of the trains from eberon, a boat, or a floating rock in the elemental chaos) would have the effect end as soon as the flag moves. Or, if you plant it, and then the ground/terrain unexpectedly moves (plant it in a teleportation circle, again on a floating rock, or if there is a mud slide). Personally, I don't believe the effect should automatically end in such circumstances.

You didn't indicate to whom you were responding, so I'm going to pretend it was to me.

- - -

More accurately: if you loose it, you lose it.

IMHO the privileged frame of reference here ought to be the battle map. If you stick it in a square on the map, it ought work so long as it remains stationary relative to that square of the map. So if your battle map is three cars of the Lightning Rail, you can plant the flag on one of them and it'll work fine.

If the DM moves your square out from under you, and you manage to keep your standard from falling over (however you decide that particular instance works), then you should get to keep your zone of effect. Why? Because it's not open to abuse. The DM can move squares, but effects which do that kind of stuff are no longer in the hands of the players... unlike carts, which are in the hands of players.

Your interpretation would cause the flags to fail in any non-Terracentric cosmology. That can't be right.

Cheers, -- N

 

[eriktheguy]

It's going to last 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter.

If you do it outside of an encounter, it will expire before your next encounter begins.

This completely answers my question. You can't simply have a permanent cart of battle standard. I forgot about the (until end of encounter means 5 minutes) clause. Thanks

As far as placing a standard on a cart while in combat goes, I have seen some interesting interpretations here. I would allow it. Although the term 'ground' appears in the description of the item (a poor choice of words IMO) the general description of standards says the can be "set into any solid surface that is not difficult terrain". That's pretty unambiguous.
The section that says you "plant the standard in your space or an adjacent square" but then goes on to say "until the battle standard is removed from the ground".
If the person writing this section hadn't been drunk, they probably would have written "when the battle standard is removed from this space". The term 'ground' isn't even defined in this instance, and in any case the standard was never placed in the 'ground', so it can't be removed from the 'ground'.
I think the person that wrote this entry is the same one responsible for the 'expertise' feat.

So then the answer is that you may place a standard on a wagon, but if the wagon moves such that the standard is removed from that space, the standard is no longer activated.

Also, you could say that you can place a standard in a space before a combat, and it will continue to take effect for up to five minutes if the combat starts soon (unless a rule I missed forbids you using 'rest of the encounter' powers outside of combat). It even makes sense flavor wise.
"Stand fast soldier, when the orcs get through that door they will not take this ground!"

Finally, if the wagon were the centerpiece of the battle, I would allow the zone to move with the wagon (but not extend outside of the wagon). When a battle takes place on a moving object I treat the object as stationary and the terrain moves by on the battle board. A group of players who hop aboard an enemy wagon going full speed down a bumpy road and manage to plunk down a banner on top of it deserve the bonus. This doesn't fly RAW but I like it.