Battlerager Vigor - post July 2009 update

[Mengu]

Assume for a moment that battlerager vigor in it's original form did not exist, and the new form is the first time we are looking at it.

Let's try and analyze to see if this is a balanced class feature, compared to other fighter builds, and other defenders.

For this example, I'm going to assume a fighter with 16 constitution and improved vigor at 1st level, other stats are irrelevant for this discussion. This character is starting with 31 hit points. And for the sake of argument let's say he doesn't care about the extra damage feature, and is built like a sword and board fighter, wearing scale, using shield and longsword.

Lets add in a few more assumptions. In 6 rounds of combat, this fighter:

* Attacks with invigorating powers 4 times, hits twice (7 THP each), misses twice (3 THP each).
* Attacks with non-invigorating powers 2 times, hits once (3 THP), misses once (0 THP).
* He uses no multiple attack powers, gains no attacks of opportunity or combat challenge attacks, no leader granted attacks, and spends no action points.

Through the course of the fight, this fighter gained 23 THP's. It's not out of the realm of possibility to think in a difficult fight either the fight would last longer, or an action point would be used, or some other form of free attack would be triggered to bump this number up to 26-30.

Considering the fighter is starting with 31 hit points, this feature nearly doubles the number of hit points available to him in an encounter, without spending any healing surges (of which he has plenty). And he has this resource available to him every encounter. The bonus is even more pronounced with a race that gets a con bonus, especially a dwarf.

And this happens at the cost of 1 point of attack bonus (which most other non-fighter defenders don't get anyway), a more specific selection of powers (though still not terribly restricting as long as you dedicate an at will and maybe 0-1 encounter powers to it), and possibly a loss of 1 or 2 points of NAD somewhere (which can happen with certain other defender builds as well such as Str/Con warden or Wis/Cha paladin).

Does this seem like a fair trade? Or does doubling the hit points available to you for every encounter seem too good to pass up?

Granted as you level up, the bonus hit points scale down a bit compared to total hit points, but at 11th level, eyeballing the numbers, it's still a good 50% boost to your hit points, and at 21st level it's around a 30% boost (more if you're a dwarf).

I don't want to go raining on anyone's parade, the errata update certainly does tone down the class feature. But if an official battlerager didn't exist, and your first level sword and board fighter player came up to you and said "I'll drop weapon talent, if you grant me 25 temporary hit points after each short or extended rest," what would be your answer? That's about 4 levels of hit points. What's the swordmage in your group who keeps getting beat into a pulp going to think about the fighter standing next to him with the hit points of a character 4 levels higher? This is essentially what the feature allows.

I love every other change they made with this update. I can understand the desire to keep battlerager a strong option, but I still don't feel they got it quite right.

 

[Garthanos]

keep in mind temporary hit points dont stack any more.

 

[Garthanos]

You are also including a feat in with the build in your computations are you going to actively compare it with something else mayhaps weapon specialization or a different feat being added on with the other build? -- ie separate out the balancing of the feat from the balancing of the class feature or two many variable will spoil it.

 

[Mengu]

I do realize temporary hit points don't stack. But if you are not getting hit, and are keeping your temporary hit points, you are not really in that much trouble.

You are also including a feat in with the build in your computations are you going to actively compare it with something else mayhaps weapon specialization or a different feat being added on with the other build? -- ie separate out the balancing of the feat from the balancing of the class feature or two many variable will spoil it.

True I did add the feat to make a point. But removing the feat would remove 2 temporary hit points from the example I gave since that example only hits twice with invigorating powers. A marginal difference.

I'm not really trying to prove anything with the comparison, just trying to gauge how people would feel about the power in the absence of the prior version of battlerager vigor. With or without feats, is the durability of a battlerager too much compared to other defenders? Or is it warranted?

 

[Dr_Sage]

Lets compare apples to apples...

Most people tend to forget that:

1 - this build "eats feats" like candy. I know... I don´t have enought slots as I would.

2 - battlerager does not gain tempo HP from hisb teamates. Remmember that many Warlord, Paladin, Cleric (bastion of defense for example) powers give nearby allies temp HPs. You simple does not gain them. Many times the fighter would normaly have temporary HPs from his allies powers.

2 - Many itens give you temp HPs, you also does not gain benefit from them.

3 - Comaback Strike and many other fighter powers are NOT invigorating, but allow regeneration/healing effects, and you will NOT gain temp HP if you choose to use them. I know this as a fact becuse right now I am trying to decide what to do with my B Rager fighter.

So in my opinion a honest comparison must take that in consideration. I use Comaback Strike... way more healing tham just get some temp HP.

Any fighter can use Crushing Surge or other invigorating power if they please, so we need to count on that.

A non-rager fighter with aproximately +3 to hit in comparison must hit more often and kill things more quickly as well.

As the joker would say: and here... we... go...

 

[Garthanos]

I do realize temporary hit points don't stack. But if you are not getting hit, and are keeping your temporary hit points, you are not really in that much trouble.

If you get hit once.. then missed once then hit once the porportionate value is half what your calculations imply and if half misses is the norm. OK..it isnt one half but it is less because you will get a hit in and temporary hitpoints when they are not saveable.

 

[Mengu]

1 - this build "eats feats" like candy. I know... I don´t have enought slots as I would.

It's one feat. That's all you need. If you're a dwarf you get stoneblood, otherwise you get improved vigor. There is nothing else feat-wise that should affect this build differently than a sword and board defender.

2 - battlerager does not gain tempo HP from hisb teamates. Remmember that many Warlord, Paladin, Cleric (bastion of defense for example) powers give nearby allies temp HPs. You simple does not gain them. Many times the fighter would normaly have temporary HPs from his allies powers.

2 - Many itens give you temp HPs, you also does not gain benefit from them.

These are true. But it also means your leader can almost completely ignore you for healing, and focus on others who will need it more. There are a lot of ripple effects that happen from the inclusion of a battlerager. DM feels they need to up the challenge of the encounters since the battleragers are so durable, this becomes tough on the strikers, and tough on the leader.

3 - Comaback Strike and many other fighter powers are NOT invigorating, but allow regeneration/healing effects, and you will NOT gain temp HP if you choose to use them. I know this as a fact becuse right now I am trying to decide what to do with my B Rager fighter.

So in my opinion a honest comparison must take that in consideration. I use Comaback Strike... way more healing tham just get some temp HP.

A power doesn't need to be invigorating to give temp hit points with the updated version of battlerager vigor. When you hit with comeback strike, not only do you get to spend a healing surge, you also gain temporary hit points equal to your con modifier.

A non-rager fighter with aproximately +3 to hit in comparison must hit more often and kill things more quickly as well.

Myth. The difference is +1. Weapon Talent. That's it. The only other arguable difference is when each builds might pick up expertise. But if they wanted, they could both pick it up at first level. So even that doesn't create a gap. There is nothing forcing a battlerager to start with lower strength, or use a +2 proficiency weapon. You do NOT need to start with 20 con to make an effective battlerager tank. 16 con (before or after racial bonus) is plenty sufficient.

 

[Mengu]

If you get hit once.. then missed once then hit once the porportionate value is half what your calculations imply and if half misses is the norm.

Except if you are being a good defender, you probably have 2 or more things attacking you, which means you will get hit more often to make those temp hit points count. It's impossible to speak with certainty for every situation, but in difficult fights (which is where survival becomes more important), I feel the battlerager feature will pay off significantly more than a +1 attack. Guess so far I'm alone in that feeling.

 

[Eric Finley]

Also, in my experience, the Invigorating powers tend to be otherwise less useful - particularly in the damage department. (I haven't looked at the higher levels, but at levels 1-3 you give up significant damage, and receive Invigorating and usually some kind of rider. Nice, but not everyone's cup of tea.) So your estimate of their usage is IMO too high; at most 50% of their attacks would be my expectation.

And you also neglect rounds on which they don't get hit, during which they don't lose any THP and thus their possible gain is ignored. To add that into your estimate, let's say they get hit 75% of the time (roughly two foes hitting at 50% each), and that an average fighter (with 31HP and one Leader-aided surge for 11HP) just barely makes it through an eight-round fight, ending up at 2HP. That works out to two enemies per round, 50% hit each, doing 5 per hit - sounds pretty reasonable at 1st level.

Where does the Battlerager end up? Well, the odds in each round are:
- 75% Invigorating x 50% hit (7 THP) x 50% takes 5HP x 50% takes 5 more HP = 3/32 odds of a net 3 damage
- 75% x 50% miss (3 THP) x 50% enemy A hits x 50% enemy B hits = 3/32 of a net 7 damage taken
- 75% x 50% hit (7THP) x 50% A hits x 50% B misses x2 (combinatorics) = 6/32 of a net 2THP gained
- 75% x 50% miss (3THP) x A-hits-B-misses as above = 6/32 of a net 2 damage taken
- 75% x 50% hit (7THP) x 50% A misses x 50% B misses = 3/32 of a net 7THP gain
- 75% x 50% miss (3THP) x both miss as above = 3/32 of a net 3THP gain
- 25% not Invigorating x 50% hit (3THP) x 25% both A and B hit = 1/32 of a net 7 damage taken
- 25% x 50% miss (0THP) x 25% both enemies hit = 1/32 of a net 10 damage taken
- 25% x 50% hit (3THP) x 50% one hits and one misses = 2/32 of a net 2 damage taken
- 25% x 50% miss x 50% one hits and one misses = 2/32 of a net 5 damage taken
- 25% x 50% hit (3THP) x 25% both enemies miss = 1/32 of a net 3THP gain
- 25% x 50% miss (0THP) x 25% both enemies miss = 1/32 of nothing happens

So out of 32 outcomes, we have:
- 3 where you gain 7THP
- 4 where you gain 3THP
- 6 where you gain 2THP
- 1 where nothing happens
- 8 where you take 2 damage
- 3 where you take 3 damage
- 2 where you take 5 damage
- 4 where you take 7 damage
- 1 where you take 10 damage
(Total 32 outcomes, check.)

However, because THP don't stack, he does get hurt somewhat more than at the rate of 28/32 = 0.875 HP/round, which is what that averages out to. It gets recursive, but setting it up in Excel, at the end of eight rounds this amounts to 10.1 points of damage inflicted, absolute average, over those conditions.

In the same eight rounds we inflicted 40HP on the fighter, necessitating a surge. The battlerager actually lost less net hit points than the estimated value of that surge. Impressive. I begin to see your point and appreciate your asking the question.

(To apples-to-apples this one to your six-round example, the standard fighter in my example has taken 30 damage, the BRV has taken 7.95 damage, a difference of... 22 HP. So the stacking didn't make an enormous difference compared to the raw calc you did, in this setup. I would have expected more, and if someone else wants to check my math, go to town.)

Tempting to add a house-ruled keyword: "Icky." Hitting an Icky thing just isn't fun, even for a battlerager; hits on it don't trigger the BRV. Tongue-in-cheek, but if I find it's being a problem, the occasional use of that might just be the fix needed. Maybe also some attacks which bypass temp HP, occasionally. Just enough to keep the player feeling threatened - really that's my primary concern.

Or I might have the THP turn into "until end of next turn melee/close damage resistance" which would mean they (a) wouldn't persist, and (b) wouldn't protect against ongoing/aura/ranged/area/trap damage. And it's those that have done it so far (two weeks ago I had a near-TPK in which the BRV was, yes, one of the last to go down... but not the last, and not by much).

 

[Cadfan]

Regarding calculations that assume the battlerager uses an Invigorating power each round- you have to remember the loss of whatever extra effect the battlerager was going to receive if he had used a different attack.

Additionally, we have frontloading again. The temp hp scale as you approach higher levels, but they don't scale by much- just your constitution modifier (or twice your constitution modifer if you hit with an Invigorating power). So at level 15, for example, the temp hit points will be getting close to doubling what you had at level 1, but your total hit points will have increased by about four times.