Be a GAME-MASTER, not a DIRECTOR

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But the action is not abuse by default. It can be abused, but then so can most things.

Still missing the point.

The emphasis on "the GM CAN do X" is unhelpful, because it is an argument about POWER, rather than a discussion of how to get good effects in play. This focus on POWER, rather than on right action, is what brings the implication of abuse.

Addressing what the GM should do, and when, how, and to what end a GM can do it, is more useful.

Not exactly true. As long as the DM is not jumping on the table and waving things in the players faces......they will never know unless they are told.

I was responding to this when folks were discussing the GM changing facts already established in the narrative, and my note was in that context. Unless they have simply forgotten what was previously established, players can and will notice.

Yea, but the other side of "you should be so scared of your players as to take no action" is also wrong.

I mean, if you keep ignoring what I pointed out was a better focus, sure, you might think that was the other side. You'd be wrong, but you'd think that.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

niklinna

Legend
By "the fiction matters to resolution" I mean the difference between a game whose moves refer to a shared fiction, and one that doesn't. RPGs are examples of the first; chess and other boardgames are examples of the second.

I've seen people try and construct counterexamples like blindfold chess. But blindfold chess doesn't use a shared fiction. It is - in its core process - no different from solving an arithmetic problem in one's head rather than on paper. It requires memory (perhaps aided by visual imagination) but the resolution process is still a type of deterministic logic/geometry. Resolution is not by way of imaginative extrapolation of a fictional state of affairs.

This is also why I regard comments such as you can roleplay while playing Monopoly, for instance by (in imagination) tooting your horn and waving to the passers-by as your motor car playing piece passes Go, as missing the point. Key to RPGing is not that we imaginatively say stuff but that the stuff that we imaginatively say actually matters to how the game unfolds. That is not true of Monopoly, no matter how vigorous the play-acting; whereas it is true of a Gygaxian dungeon-crawl, no matter how pawn stance the players' orientation towards their "pieces" (ie their PCs). For instance, there is no rule in classic D&D that tells us (for instance) that an axe might be used to break through a door. There is no axe piece, no door piece, and no rule connecting them - which contrasts, for instance, with the rule in the Talisman boardgame about using an axe to build a raft. The reason that an axe can be used to break through a door is because of a table consensus that that makes sense as a possibility in the shared fiction.

RPGs also have fictional position. That's an expansive notion, but at least as I understand it, it includes such elements of play as that my PC is standing at a barred door, holding an axe, which is not about the state of a token on a board (real or imagined), but rather an assertion that everyone at the table agrees with, but in a fictional rather than doxastic mode. The fictional position makes moves possible not because of geometrical or similar logical/deductive relationships (cf blindfold chess) but because we can, collectively, imagine what a person standing in front of a barred door and holding an axe might do.

I think two things are being run together here. There could be - and, presumably, are - texts to support freeform RPG. And a non-freeform RPG can be played without a prior text, if the rules are negotiated and agreed in the course of play by the participants.

All a rules text is is a reduction, to writing, of the procedures and/or rules of play. Those procedures and rules "exist" (I use scare quotes to sidestep the metaphysical questions about the nature of rules) even if not reduced to writing; and freeform has procedures (if not rules in the strictest sense) that could in principle be reduced to writing, even if often they're not.

Game texts are prescriptive because they contain rules; and it is the general nature/function of rules to prescribe.

RPG rules generally prescribe ways for a group to come to agreement on the content of a shared fiction, in a play context where it is implicit and perhaps explicit that no single person has unilateral authority over the whole of the shared fiction as such.

It's no mystery that rules can set out methods for how to establish a shared fiction without stating what that fiction should be. Similarly, a book of instructions on how to build a house safely and legally will be prescriptive without telling you what sort of house you should build. When I was a kid, I had a book that told me how to program in simple BASIC without telling me what I should program (one of the things I remember programming was a simple PC generator for Moldvay Basic). Etc.

I don't really follow this. When I read (for instance) the rules for building a PC in Moldvay Basic, I don't feel the meaning of the text as something inspired by the text translated through my performance. Rather, I read the rules and follow the procedure, much like following a recipe. And then, when I play, I establish fictional position, and resolve actions declared on the basis of that fictional position, by reference to the rules.

If the sorts of texts you are meaning are campaign guides, scenario outlines etc I still don't really follow. When my group uses, for instance, the Greyhawk maps to establish some bit of fictional position, or to reach consensus on the resolution of an action (eg We travel from the Wizard's Tower to the Forgotten Temple Complex - ie from a point on the southern Bluff Hills to a point nestled between the Troll Fens to the south and a spur of the Griff Mountains to the north), we look at the map, incorporate that into our shared imagining, and go on by straightforward extrapolation.

You've largely lost me here.

Some game texts are constructed subsequent to play - this is true of the original D&D rulebooks, and also of the GH Folio. Some may be constructed prior to play, although if they've not been tested at all we might expect them to be weak - I have certainly written house rules on the basis of imagination and prior experience alone, without testing them, and so those bits of text have been constructed prior to any play using them. Not all of those house rules have been failures, either, although some have been.

Anyway, it seems to me that you are treating as somewhat difficult or mysterious the possibilities that rules can be authored to govern the creation of fictions, without thereby dictating the content of those fictions and that fictions authored by one person can be incorporated by others, in whole or in part, into their different fictions - whereas I think both possibilities are quite straightforward. The first possibility is just a special case of the general phenomenon of an instruction manual for some activity that is not fully prescriptive as to the end product (what sort of house will I build, now that I know how to build houses? how many layers will I put on my cake, now that I know how to bake cakes and spread cream and jam between layers? etc). And the second possibility is just a special case of the general phenomena of (i) language being public and iterable, and (ii) assertions in non-doxastic modes, including fictional modes, being a thing that is pretty innate to humans.
That all makes eminent sense (although I did have to look up "doxastic").
 

thefutilist

Adventurer
I was reflecting along those lines after posting my last. An aspect that motivates having in mind @pemerton's viewpoint is that designer may see play that they want to reliably repeat, or repeat with some modification, and draft rules to that end. Baker speaks directly to that sort of design process, describing noticing play in Ars Magica, freeform, etc., and crafting rules to innovate play along lines he put stock in. Being able to see play clearly - see what was really going on at the table - has been one of the great skills that Baker has brought to his design work, and a lesson for other designers.

Both ways of looking at it have worth. A designer ought to want to see the phenomena of play clearly. And they ought to see how rules and cues etc can recreate that phenomena and innovate it as desired. The "prospective play" I referred to is needed when the play conceived is nascent.

The way I see it is that there's the fiction and the system is how the fiction moves forward. So it precisely isn't that cues replicate play but they are the process of play. Instructions are really just conveying what the cues are. I think I'm just echoing @pemerton here.

Where I think I may agree is if we look at a kind of literary theory as it applies to role-playing. A classic example being conflict resolution.

So in Sorcerer:

The trigger/cue for the resolution mechanic is when a character takes action that conflicts with another characters priorities/interests.

This necessitates judging the fiction in terms of priorities and interests and having a method to figure out what those priorities and interests are.

In my case at least, you begin seeing the fiction differently. Compare this to another common trigger 'when something interesting could happen'. I think they lead to very different appreciations of the quality of the fiction, probably produce different quality fiction and of course have a very different feel during the process of play.

Again in my case, this difference was so profound in it's impact it changed the way I see stories and subsequently how I roleplay and what mechanics I prefer.

For instance, Hillfolk leaves me cold because I just don't see stories the way Robin laws does.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
The way I see it is that there's the fiction and the system is how the fiction moves forward. So it precisely isn't that cues replicate play but they are the process of play. Instructions are really just conveying what the cues are. I think I'm just echoing @pemerton here.
My meaning is that the cues are designed to replicate (with possible modification or innovation) the previously or prospectively experienced play. They subsequently serve the process of play as you say.

Where I may differ from your take is that while I'd agree with you that system moves the fiction forward, I'd add that fiction can move the fiction forward. And of course fiction can invoke the system and feed it parameters, in that way moving the system forward. Following Baker, I wouldn't be against saying that system moves the fiction forward in ways players wouldn't choose (but are prepared to risk) which may then differentiate how fiction moves forward depending on source of impetus.

Fiction moving system or fiction forward seems implied by "the fiction mattering to resolution". Said "resolution" could utilize unwritten rules embedded in but not identical to the fiction... but we'd soon find ourselves splitting hairs over what counts as fiction and what counts as an unwritten rule (given I'd say that rules are normative so that expectations about the fiction such as an axe cutting a wooden door and an ordinary feather not doing so can be cast as rules.)

Where I think I may agree is if we look at a kind of literary theory as it applies to role-playing. A classic example being conflict resolution.

So in Sorcerer:

The trigger/cue for the resolution mechanic is when a character takes action that conflicts with another characters priorities/interests.

This necessitates judging the fiction in terms of priorities and interests and having a method to figure out what those priorities and interests are.

In my case at least, you begin seeing the fiction differently. Compare this to another common trigger 'when something interesting could happen'. I think they lead to very different appreciations of the quality of the fiction, probably produce different quality fiction and of course have a very different feel during the process of play.

Again in my case, this difference was so profound in it's impact it changed the way I see stories and subsequently how I roleplay and what mechanics I prefer.
That's a good example and it seems altogether likely that Edwards designed the resolution mechanic with that consequence on play intended. One might be inclined to say that conflicts with another character's priorities/interests had the potential to be interesting, but I take your point.
 

pemerton

Legend
That all makes eminent sense (although I did have to look up "doxastic").
Thanks! Doxastic is a technical term I picked up from philosophy of language, and though I'm using it a bit more loosely here I hope the meaning is clear enough - to contrast assertions with a commitment to truth/belief from assertions that are presented/entertained (i) nevertheless as objects of reasoning etc but (ii) not believed, but known to be made up - these are fictions, which humans are very good at!
 

pemerton

Legend
Connecting it with "resolution" seems right (versus those other examples of let's pretend.) I'd say that "Resolution" is more part of what it is to be a game, than what it is to roleplay. Being done in the particular way involving fiction makes RPGs open and formally incomplete in contrast with definitions of game like Chris Crawford's that assume closure and completeness. Openness and incompleteness succumb well to instruction and less well to specification. The table draws into their play concepts and norms (such as those about axes and wooden doors) from a practically limitless reservoir.
Here's a technical way to look at it (drawing on this technical work on counterfactuals: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-0068.2010.00810.x ; https://www.jstor.org/stable/2660092 ; https://www.jstor.org/stable/25001417):

Fiction, like counterfactuals, involves disciplined/non-arbitrary reasoning despite denying truths and asserting falsehoods.

The reasoning involves inferring from an asserted (but not doxastically asserted) starting point, to the conclusion, by drawing upon permissible background assumptions that are not themselves excluded by the entertaining of the initial falsehood. (This is a version of Nelson Goodman's co-tenability requirement for counterfactual reasoning.)​

The key question, in RPGing (and perhaps fiction more generally) is, what background assumptions are permissible. When people say it's real world physics except where it's not, they are getting at the permissible background assumptions. Now as it turns out, real world physics will not provide good background assumptions, because real world physics (eg thermodynamics, universal gravitation, etc) will - when combined with the sorts of things we assert in FRPG fictions - quickly produce contradictions and nonsense. (Eg that dragons crash, that giant insects suffocate, etc.)

Rather than real world physics, it is some sort of folksy common sense that supplies most of the background assumptions. And a few truths are expressly or very strongly implicitly excluded - namely, those that obviously contradict the existence of magic, or would trivially produce contradiction when combined with premises about magical things happening.

Folksy common sense is not capable of precise specification. I think that is a proposition that overlaps with your point about a lack of completeness.

For folk whose experience of RPGing has been following the instructions of a text, it might not be immediately evident that those texts can only be constructed following the experience of play.
Well, as I've said, I think some of them or at least some bits of them are constructed prior to the play that they seek to engender. And while these might tend to be the weak bits of a ruleset, they're not necessarily going to be hopeless.

I'm still not persuaded this is any different from recipes - I think most recipes are written after some relevant cooking experience. But maybe not always - I don't know how Heston works. And it is possible for composers to compose without instruments to "test" their compositions (I think Mozart did this; I don't know how much Wagner tested his compositions on a piano or similar instrument he may have had to hand, but he composed at least some of them without ever having heard them played in the way that he scored them.) The same might be possible for a genius RPG designer.

Inspire may not be the right word choice, but while I like the examples of building and programming I believe the above significantly undersells it. My points of comparison are with traditional storytelling media, in which performances are secured by more exact specification. I'm trying to think what storytelling form aside from RPGing makes its core text an instruction manual?
Other storytelling games - eg A Penny For My Thoughts.

It seems we look at the same facts and feel differing senses of excitement about them.
That may be so. But am I insufficiently excited? Or are you insufficiently excited by other creative things that humans do, and the relationship between those things and the written manuals that make them possible (or that at least make dissemination of them possible)?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Ok, so this is the classic 'players own their PC', and the DM 'owns everything else'. But there is no 'sharing' here.

If, as you say, the players own their PCs, and the DM everything else...

If they don't share, the PCs cannot have access to the game world, and the game world is empty of anyone playing in it.

If they were kids, the GM has the backyard with the box of sand, and the players have the Tonka trucks - they have to share with each other for anything to happen. "You get to play with my sand, and I get to play with your trucks." You know, like we learned to do in kindergarten.

Unless one or the other of them is a bully, of course...

The "RPGs are like kids with toys and a sandbox" analogy isn't the worst in the world for simplifying the view down from lofty language.
 

pemerton

Legend
while I'd agree with you that system moves the fiction forward, I'd add that fiction can move the fiction forward. And of course fiction can invoke the system and feed it parameters, in that way moving the system forward. Following Baker, I wouldn't be against saying that system moves the fiction forward in ways players wouldn't choose (but are prepared to risk) which may then differentiate how fiction moves forward depending on source of impetus.

Fiction moving system or fiction forward seems implied by "the fiction mattering to resolution". Said "resolution" could utilize unwritten rules embedded in but not identical to the fiction... but we'd soon find ourselves splitting hairs over what counts as fiction and what counts as an unwritten rule (given I'd say that rules are normative so that expectations about the fiction such as an axe cutting a wooden door and an ordinary feather not doing so can be cast as rules.)
I understood @thefutilist to be using "system" much as Baker and Edwards do. So it would include procedures/practices (including informal/unwritten ones) for moving from fiction to fiction unmediated by cues.
 

bloodtide

Legend
If, as you say, the players own their PCs, and the DM everything else...

If they don't share, the PCs cannot have access to the game world, and the game world is empty of anyone playing in it.
This just moves the definition of the word 'share' to be 'anything'.

If they were kids, the GM has the backyard with the box of sand, and the players have the Tonka trucks - they have to share with each other for anything to happen. "You get to play with my sand, and I get to play with your trucks." You know, like we learned to do in kindergarten.
I don't know of any RPG that works this way... The player does not bring a character for the DM. And the DM says you can play in my sandbox, but you must follow my rules...like don't ruin or destroy it.
Unless one or the other of them is a bully, of course...

The "RPGs are like kids with toys and a sandbox" analogy isn't the worst in the world for simplifying the view down from lofty language.
I don't think it fits at all. The players don't come over to 'play' in the DMs game world like a sandbox. The players don't just sit there and 'play by themselves' and 'do whatever they want'.

I own a game room....built it myself..in my one barn. I own it and everything in it. I do invite people over to use it, like say play pool. It's a stretch and miss wording to say I "share" my game room and pool table. And they bring nothing but themselves. Even if they bring their lucky cue, we don't 'share' it.

It's like I own and maintain a large in ground pool. Some other guy brings over a foam ball we can toss around in the pool and play a game. And you'd say we are "sharing" the game. Sure...I have the massive expensive pool....and the other guy has a $5 foam ball......that is not even close to being equal.

Worse....it is like what often happens in a work place....one person does 99% of the work, while four others each do way less then 1%.....oh, but sure it is a "team effort" as their are five workers "sharing" all the work.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
This just moves the definition of the word 'share' to be 'anything'

No, it doesn't.

But, you asserting that it does, with no support at all leads me to think that arguing it with you will be metaphorically like banging my head against a wall.
So, I'm not going to bother.
 

Remove ads

Top