Bear psychology question

[Quickleaf]

TAlso, many predators are quite single-minded when it comes to 'I'm attakcing' vs 'something's attacking me'. Mountain lions who are currently chomping on one person are very difficult to stop - even if a second or third person is hitting the mountain lion, it takes a lot to actually discourage them from halting the assault on their initial target. I would speculate part of the reason is that mountain lions aren't used to being threatened by anything, so 'oh no I'm attacked by food' doesn't come up a lot in their instincts.

For an excellent example of getting attacked by one's food reference Battle at Kruger. Battle at Kruger - Lions vs. Buffalo vs. Crocodiles - Video

Then again I have never encountered a dire anything, so all bets are off.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't think bears would attack in groups, which makes things confusing.

IMO, if a really hungry bear attacked a bunch of people, it would pick on someone who is moving more slowly (especially if they're trailing the rest of the party) and isn't covered in unappetizing metal armor. After being poked by weapons (a spear could stab a bear deep, a fighter could use a sword effectively, a bear wouldn't even understand what is happening to it if it got hit by magic), the bear would run away.

I think against a single target a bear would be overwhelming, as it's so full of adrenaline and resistant to pain it might keep fighting even after being stabbed in the face, but once it's being beat it would get out of there.

Seems I'm the minority opinion here.

A bear that's "defending its territory" might fight until it's heavily wounded, but I can't figure why a bear would want to defend its territory against a band of humans that aren't trying to bother it.

How did this in-game battle start?

 

[RangerWickett]

Exclusive - Godless Killing Machines Mash-up - The Colbert Report - 2008-01-12 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

 

[Mark CMG]

Playing dead is no guarantee but has a higher degree of detering an attack than fighting back. I would have had the bear move on to the next closest threat but bears are unpredictable so a die roll was probably fine.

Apparent death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[The Shaman]

A real bear would attack the next target if it seems more threatening than the current victim. Which is usually the case when someone is unconscious. There is a reason why you are advised to play dead when a bear attacks.

Not necessarily, as [MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION] points out.

But I can't recall a single story about man eating bears.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Bear-Attacks-Their-Causes-Avoidance/dp/0941130827]Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance[/ame].

I would guess it would depend on what the bear was doing.

A typical predator behaviour is to down one and drag it off. In that case, I'd probably use the attack and then withdraw carrying the meat.

If the bear was defending territory, it'd probably disregard anything that is no longer threatening the territory -- anyone withdrawing, or down. Until such time as they are the only source of irritation.

If the bear was trying to establish superiority, it's probably complete the attack hoping the rest of the pack would take the hint.

If the bear was attempting to withdraw, it'd proably not complete attack as that aggressor is down.

If the bears were trained and acting out orders, it would depend on their training and thus the personality of the trainers.

Just to counter your first point; bears are shy and run away a lot. The problem comes when they don't, they are powerful enough to rip you a new one.

Bears are unpredictable in temperment; playing dead only works if the bear is attacking defensively; he'll realise you pose no threat and stop. If the bear is aggressive, the advice is fight back as best you can.

Playing dead is no guarantee . . .

Speaking as a former park ranger who worked on black bear management in a national park, these are spot on.

 

[NewJeffCT]

wow, didn't expect so many responses in the few hours I was out of the house...

Will give out some XP later to folks for the good advice.

I had played it something like a family of bears - the killer bear which killed the PC in question, that bear's mate (even listed it on the sheet as the mate), and then the regular cave bears, which I ran as "cubs" to the bigger dire bears. The killer bear's mate was killed, so it was likely enraged over that, if bears get that attached to their mates.

(yes, I know male bears are typically solo, while mama bear raises the cubs. But, they were at the ruined temple for a reason.)

 

[Janx]

just to state my credentials. I am not a bear expert. But I did grow up in the country and see bears crossing our fields and we almost hit a bear on the way home from prom. Mostly, that means I know more than any city kid who watched the same Discovery channel show as I did, but less than a park ranger. My friend does have several bearskins adorning his walls.

Most the stories about bear encounters I've heard are:

• male bear finds hiker and mauls him because that's what they do
• hiker comes across mama bear and her cubs and mauls him
• person(s) sees bear over there a ways, and bear moves off.

Not too many encounters where a single bear encounters and attacks a group of people. A pre-enraged bear would probably stay away, because it is outnumbered and probably not threatened.

Once combat starts, it seems there has been a variety of outcomes in the real world:

• bear stops when target is dead-like
• bear moves on to next target until all threats are eliminated
• bear totally finishes off the current target before taking other action

As such, a DM could be justified with any interpretation, and it sounds rolling for it was a fair enough way to establish a random yet reasonable effect.

Remember, taking a PC down to 0 is as good as dead to a bear, who doesn't know about binding wounds or healing spells. His last attack effectively WAS the killing assault.

Another factor to keep in mind is how to simulate animal combat reasoning. Animals do NOT generally attack superior opponents. Even bears. They would posture first, to try to look bigger to scare away the threat. Even a mama bear with cubs present.

After posturing, which is their primitive threat assessment, if the enemy hasn't retreated (bigger bear, stupid human), then it goes in for the attack IF it thinks the enemy is stupid. If the animal is outnumbered or outsized (bigger bear, party of humans), then the animal will probably retreat.

Basically, animal fights happen because one side is too stupid to have measured up his oponnent and thinks he can win.

A single human in the real world is at a disadvantage because they are smaller, they can't win the posturing test. And usuaully they are weaker, so they seldom win the fight, hence it reaching the news as a bear mauling attack.

A D&D human has a lot more on its side, that a bear may not realize evens the playing field (15th level fighter vs. bear = dead bear).

I would posit that an animal has 2 combat modes. Basic combat mode where once it sees it can't win, it WILL retreat. Enraged combat mode is that the animal has committed to the fight, perhaps because it is hurt badly, desperate or trapped. In this case, the animal is less likely to retreat and is the more likely time for this to be a fight to the death.

It would probably be up to the GM to determine if the animal goes enraged, but it's this enraged mode where the fight should get lethal. Before that, the moment you see that the bear can't win (outnumbered, doing good damage and hitting well enough), the bear should be willing to run anway.

 

[NewJeffCT]

A bear that's "defending its territory" might fight until it's heavily wounded, but I can't figure why a bear would want to defend its territory against a band of humans that aren't trying to bother it.

How did this in-game battle start?

Part of the adventure Stolen Lands from Paizo. The disgraced cleric of a nature goddess comes seeking redemption, saying he had a vision of a long-lost temple of his nature goddess, but that it was guarded by a foul tempered bear. The disgraced cleric said if he can restore the temple, he can regain the favor of his goddess. Seeing a quid-pro-quo situation, the players helped him out and found the temple, thinking the restored cleric could then help them out with healing & whatnot, when needed.

Since my group is a bit higher in level than the suggested for the module, and it's 4E and not Pathfinder, I made it into a family of dire bears. The PCs storm the temple and attack the bears.

Unfortunately for the PC, even though I needed 14 or higher to hit the artificer/swordmage, I rolled an 18 and a 19 and dropped the PC below zero.

If it hits twice, the bear's normal attack is to then make a secondary attack, which it did. It then attempts to grab PC, which it needed a 16 to hit, which I did. After grabbing, the bear can do its Ursine Crush attack which is an auto-hit if grabbed, and that took the PC down below negative bloodied.

I was not sure what bear behavior would do if confronted with an already dead opponent. Would it rip dead PC to shreds, or would it continue to defend its turf and attack next available opponent.

 

[Janx]

Part of the adventure Stolen Lands from Paizo. The disgraced cleric of a nature goddess comes seeking redemption, saying he had a vision of a long-lost temple of his nature goddess, but that it was guarded by a foul tempered bear. The disgraced cleric said if he can restore the temple, he can regain the favor of his goddess. Seeing a quid-pro-quo situation, the players helped him out and found the temple, thinking the restored cleric could then help them out with healing & whatnot, when needed.

Since my group is a bit higher in level than the suggested for the module, and it's 4E and not Pathfinder, I made it into a family of dire bears. The PCs storm the temple and attack the bears.

Unfortunately for the PC, even though I needed 14 or higher to hit the artificer/swordmage, I rolled an 18 and a 19 and dropped the PC below zero.

If it hits twice, the bear's normal attack is to then make a secondary attack, which it did. It then attempts to grab PC, which it needed a 16 to hit, which I did. After grabbing, the bear can do its Ursine Crush attack which is an auto-hit if grabbed, and that took the PC down below negative bloodied.

I was not sure what bear behavior would do if confronted with an already dead opponent. Would it rip dead PC to shreds, or would it continue to defend its turf and attack next available opponent.

in a way, the bear did rip the PC to shreds. the pc was below zero as a floppy meat sack.

Assuming the other PCs were also hitting it, it was likely mad at all threats against it.

Easily justifying moving on to a new target.

You said you saw it both ways, and diced for it. That was probably a fine way to resolve it.

Since bears have been known to quit attacking somebody after they play possum and that includes the pre-requisite "extra maul until it appears to be dead" I think the fact that the PC was basically DEAD meets that criteria.

so my angle is that the last attack to bring a PC down IS the "I'm still mad at him attack" There are very few things that actually super-shred and dismember their target after its dead. That usually actually takes more time and is almost a fun activity. Not something that is done WHILE still under attack by other threats.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But I can't recall a single story about man eating bears.

I'm that man, and I was very, very hungry.


On a serious note, though, there was Timothy Treadwell.

Timothy Treadwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia