BECMI: not D&D?

[Brennin Magalus]

With all the talk of the flavor changes in 4th edition making the game not D&D anymore, I got to thinking...

Imagine a D&D game where the designers didn't include the half-orc, half-elf, or gnome as races. In fact, there are really no races at all; you are either a human with a choice of four classes, or you are one of three "demi-humans" who are classes themselves. There are no demons or devils at all. The gods themselves have been taken right out of the game, replaced with beings called immortals. The Great Wheel doesn't exist. Levels go up to 36 instead of 20, and there is no multi-classing whatsoever. You can't be a paladin unless you're a 9th-level fighter, and druids don't get a wildshape ability -- in fact, they don't exist at all unless your DM allows an option rule that gives your 9th-level cleric a chance to become a druid. The spells have no Greyhawk surnames in front of them, and the mind flayer isn't included in the core rules.

Based on how many people claim that 4th edition won't be D&D anymore, it's interesting to see how different the game that actually was Dungeons & Dragons for close to two decades is absolutely nothing like what most people consider quintessential D&D.

Don't disrupt the argument with facts.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

The funniest part about it is that, while 3E IS called D&D, it is actually a continuation of AD&D, which from its first edition on was a different game from the old D&D game. They have a lot of similarities, but they were designed to be different enough from each other to qualify as different games. And while there is a LOT of (A)D&D fans sounding up here about 4E, there is a lot less comparison with B/X or even BECMI D&D to be seen. Otherwise, people would have lot less problems with some parts of the new cosmology.

So yeah, BECMI IS D&D...it's just not D&D.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

The BECMI version is what I cut my teeth on and although some of my books have been lost throughout the ages I've recovered by downloading the .pdfs.

 

[BASHMAN]

Bring back the Thoul now!

My most antagonizing fellow-player, whose character I absolutely despised, and had been sent by the master of the desert nomads to assassinate us-- was killed by wrestling a Thoul! Watching that character die so helplessly was one of the funner D&D moments for me!

 

[pawsplay]

Based on how many people claim that 4th edition won't be D&D anymore, it's interesting to see how different the game that actually was Dungeons & Dragons for close to two decades is absolutely nothing like what most people consider quintessential D&D.

Well...

Gnomes were in basic D&D, just not as a playable race right off the bat. That makes sense, since they would need their own leveling table, entry on the skills chart, high level progression, etc. So including them would have been significant. That said, gnomes were in the monsters section. And it always seemed like a rip-off you could not be a gnome, especially once I was exposed to AD&D.

Immortals in BECMI are very similar to 3.0 Deities and Demigods, much moreso than AD&D 2e deities ("If you fight a god, you die. But their avatars are incredibly wussy, so disco!")

You coudn't be a paladin until 9th level, but then, in 3.0 a paladin has neither a special mount nor spells until 4th. Given the difference between 36 and 20 levels, that's little more than an artifact of design.

You could certainly play AD&D in Mystara, or Basic D&D in Greyhawk. You might have to convert a few monsters. You could still play Mystara in 3.5, albeit with some variation. Playing FR in BECMI would require more work, but wouldn't require much more in the way of new systems.

But if 4e gives us wizards with per encounter zot spells, fighters cutting adamantine walls in half, beholders with the wrong number of eyes, and the like, trying to play D&D 4e Mystara would take on the character of a game conversion, not simply a campaign.

In conclusion, I don't see that anyting in the OP really suggests D&D has changed all that much. Some elements have changed, different settings have different assumptions, and certainly gameplay has altered. But on the whole, character capabilities have been pretty consistent.

 

[TerraDave]

Based on what 50% or more said D&D must have in this poll:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=205162

B/Ex D&D did clearly lack one essential: mind flayers. Whether it “lacked” races, multi-classing, evil humans, demons & devils, drow, and “20 or more kinds of weapons” is more a question of interpretation and versions used.

But it has most of the essential elements. Again according to the poll.

 

[pawsplay]

Based on what 50% or more said D&D must have in this poll:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=205162

B/Ex D&D did clearly lack one essential: mind flayers. Whether it “lacked” races, multi-classing, evil humans, demons & devils, drow, and “20 or more kinds of weapons” is more a question of interpretation and versions used.

But it has most of the essential elements. Again according to the poll.

The Isle of Dread had the Kopru, so it's not much of a lack. And many anti-psionic DMs aren't keen on mind flayers, either, although I imagine most people like them well.

 

[Keldryn]

For whatever reason, BECMI & AD&D2e are the points that begin to feel a bit like pseudo-D&D to me. Probably just having to do with me associating my first products in each line as the "true" game.

Probably, since the "Mentzer" Basic and Expert sets were my first D&D products. At the time, AD&D 1e felt a bit like a pseudo-D&D to me.

 

[cooper3046]

1st Edition AD&D was crap...

I just like to toss that opinion out there whenever people wax longingly for the golden days. The BECMI was so much more enjoyable to play. Of course, 2nd Edition pantsed both of them, until it got all weird with Player's Option letting anyone twist it around until it was broken.

 

[Remathilis]

1st Edition AD&D was crap...

I just like to toss that opinion out there whenever people wax longingly for the golden days. The BECMI was so much more enjoyable to play. Of course, 2nd Edition pantsed both of them, until it got all weird with Player's Option letting anyone twist it around until it was broken.

QFT, but I'd rank BECMI above 2e (even if its not as complete, it is MUCH more elegant).