Beginner DM needs help

[hippokrene]

Greetings all!

I’m DMing a PbP game (The Scales of War – Rescue at Riverroar) on another forum and running into two big issues. I’ve decided to post this here so none of my players see it and because a friend of mine has mentioned this site previously.

I’ve highlighted the important parts so you don’t have to read through all of this.

Issue 1: Player assumptions about the setting

I’ve told the players that I’m using a pre-made adventure *but* I’ve altered the setting. I’ve encouraged them to roll knowledge checks when spotting monsters or interacting with others, but only one of my players does this.

Example 1: The players are convinced that ogres are dumb.

I show them a picture of an ogre that isn’t from the players handbook. It’s large, blue, and has horns and armor. I say that an ogre is a feared creature as they’re fallen celestial guardians. I’ve had an ogre speak to them in Common in battle and an NPC has mentioned an ogre as leading bands of goblinoids.

In my setting, ogres are slightly more intelligent than humans are, but my players “know” ogres are stupid. Several of them have played DnD previously and it’s just a given in their mind. Again, they don’t roll monster knowledge checks, even when I suggest they do so in battle.

Example 2: The players are convinced that all drow are evil.

These PCs are all level 1. I had a drow approach them in broad daylight in a human city. She asked to speak with them privately, lead them to a temple of Lolth, and told them that she was the priestess and she would give them a map to a location they were looking for if they did her a favor.

Now, I previously had shown this drow sitting at the tavern with no problems, shown her talking to an elven huntress, and an elven priestess of Avandra told the PCs that young drow pass through the city every once in a while and she didn’t think this one was a problem.

No one rolled knowledge to see what they knew about the drow and one PC made a religion check, but did not share any information about Lolth with the other PCs. They did roll insight, and I told them the priestess was being truthful though she wasn’t telling them everything.

Everyone told me that they were suspicious and didn’t trust her, they constantly made insight and perception checks, and one half-elf PC was adamant he wouldn’t help because drow are evil and Lolth is evil. His attitude has nothing to do with anonymity between elves and drow as this half-elf was raised by humans and doesn’t even speak elven.

Alternatively, they’ve all been friendly and trusting of the half-orc PC despite the fact that two of them have had their families butchered by orcs.

How do I deal with this?

Issue 2: They avoid quests and combat

I’ve told them this is a pre-made adventure. They’ve managed to fail skill challenges (A man asked them to recover holy relics of Erathis. During the ‘bargaining’ skill challenge, they agreed to a price and *then* the half-orc demanded more and said if he didn’t get it, he’d sell them all to priests of Gruumsh. This is the day after a horde of goblinoids has attacked the town and killed many people) and they turned down the quest the priestess offered them.

That’s 300 XP they didn’t get. Plus the sidequest she was going to offer, which would have been 500 xp.

As they didn’t get the map she was offering, I decided to throw a cave bear at them as they traveled to the location. I thought it would be funny if they found a bear cub going through their backpacks at camp and then a mother bear charged in.

Big mistake! They refuse to fight the bear because it’s just protecting its cub. I’ve told them that they don’t have to kill it and that I would never make them orphan a bear cub. Instead of fighting the bear, they all want to sneak off and have the ranger use ‘nature’ to calm it.

If I let them do it, that’s 600 xp they won’t get. If I force the attack, they’re now scattered about and I’m railroading them into a fight.

How should I deal with this?

 

[babinro]

Issue 1: Personally, I find there is a difference between monster knowledge checks and general knowledge a player would have from their upbringing. As a DM, you can either inform your players that they know Ogres to be intelligent creatures based on common knowledge.

However, the more fun way to do something like that is to illustrate it through their actions and tactics. Eventually, your players should come around to your concept. Likewise, their experiences with some of the drow in your game should ultimately reveal the sort of creatures they are. Until then, you can simply consider your PC's to have a roleplaying bias towards said races.

Issue 2: Give them full xp for the Bear combat. Combat is not always about defeating your enemy, it is more about overcoming an obstacle. If they flee from this situation with RP reasoning, that is the same as having won the encounter. They should not be punished for that. You don't want to railroad them as you could be forcing them into the game you want them to experience, rather than the one they want to play.

Sounds to me like you have an interesting group of players. While the first issue could prove to be an annoyance, neither of these concerns should really hold a negative impact on the game unless you or the players are getting bored as a result. My advice is to simply keep the game going, as you learn how your players react, you can adjust things as DM.

 

[Boregar]

As far as the first point goes, have you considered changing the names of the creatures as well as the characteristics? So they aren't thinking of them as 'ogres' and applying any pre-conceived ideas, but as something new.

 

[FireLance]

Issue 1: Player assumptions about the setting

In the first place, if you are a beginner DM (as you mentioned in your thread title) it may be better to stick to the standard D&D tropes and assumptions. Getting the hang of DMing is tough enough on its own without taking on the extra burden of communicating to the players that certain things are different in your campaign. Is there a particular reason why you want to do that?

That said, if something is common knowledge, or important enough to your campaign that things will get messy if the players get it wrong, you should simply tell the players flat out how your campaign is different without asking their PCs to make a knowledge check of any sort. If Lolth and most drow are not evil in your campaign, you should simply tell them that. And once you have told them that, don't confuse matters by having them face off against a stereotypical evil drow NPC antagonist. It will be difficult for you to get your players to believe anything you say after that.

In other cases, it may be enough to gradually allow the truth to seep in. The ogre example is probably one such case. After the PCs have encountered enough smart ogres, the players may eventually come to realize this fact. Even if they never do, the worst that could happen is that they underestimate ogre opponents. This may make ogre encounters tougher than they expect, but it shouldn't cause your campaign to fall apart.

Alternatively, they’ve all been friendly and trusting of the half-orc PC despite the fact that two of them have had their families butchered by orcs.

Why should this a problem? Intra-party conflict can be problematic if it's not handled properly.

Issue 2: They avoid quests and combat

It looks like you've fallen into the basic trap of assuming that the PCs will only follow one course of action. A DM who knows his players fairly well may have a good chance of predicting what they will do in response to a particular in-game situation, but it's always better to have one or two contingency plans in place in case the players decide to do something else, and be prepared to improvise in the event that they try something that is not even covered by your contingency plans. For example, you could have turned the players' attempts to calm the bear into a skill challenge. If that failed, escaping from an angry, attacking bear could be another skill challenge.

That said, if you have been quite upfront about the fact that it is a scripted adventure, and the players aren't playing along by taking up the missions offered by the NPCs, then it's really their own problem if they miss out on XP and other rewards.

 

[chitzk0i]

"Drow aren't evil" is something you should flat-out tell the players. "Orges aren't dumb" is something you should teach them.

 

[Solvarn]

Issue 1: Player assumptions about the setting

Example 1: The players are convinced that ogres are dumb.

I show them a picture of an ogre that isn’t from the players handbook. It’s large, blue, and has horns and armor. I say that an ogre is a feared creature as they’re fallen celestial guardians. I’ve had an ogre speak to them in Common in battle and an NPC has mentioned an ogre as leading bands of goblinoids.

In my setting, ogres are slightly more intelligent than humans are, but my players “know” ogres are stupid. Several of them have played DnD previously and it’s just a given in their mind. Again, they don’t roll monster knowledge checks, even when I suggest they do so in battle.

First off, you are describing what sounds an awfully lot like a monster that used to be called an ogre mage and is now an oni. Check out oni in the Monster Manual. Regardless, let them assume what they want. It may take awhile for them to realize their misconception, but monster knowledge check combined with them seeing ogres being smart could change their minds. They're low level, maybe the stories they heard were wrong.

Example 2: The players are convinced that all drow are evil.

These PCs are all level 1. I had a drow approach them in broad daylight in a human city. She asked to speak with them privately, lead them to a temple of Lolth, and told them that she was the priestess and she would give them a map to a location they were looking for if they did her a favor.

Now, I previously had shown this drow sitting at the tavern with no problems, shown her talking to an elven huntress, and an elven priestess of Avandra told the PCs that young drow pass through the city every once in a while and she didn’t think this one was a problem.

No one rolled knowledge to see what they knew about the drow and one PC made a religion check, but did not share any information about Lolth with the other PCs. They did roll insight, and I told them the priestess was being truthful though she wasn’t telling them everything.

Everyone told me that they were suspicious and didn’t trust her, they constantly made insight and perception checks, and one half-elf PC was adamant he wouldn’t help because drow are evil and Lolth is evil. His attitude has nothing to do with anonymity between elves and drow as this half-elf was raised by humans and doesn’t even speak elven.

Alternatively, they’ve all been friendly and trusting of the half-orc PC despite the fact that two of them have had their families butchered by orcs.

How do I deal with this?

Lloth is a demon goddess. She is very chaotic and very evil. A large dose of mistrust when dealing with anything Lloth related is a good thing. As a good PC I would never do any favor for a priestess of Lloth if I could somehow avoid it. Research Lloth, and then you will understand what her goals are. A deity tries to push its agenda on the world through its worshippers.

Allow one Insight or Perception check per character per encounter. Roll dice, regardless of whether you are bluffing or not.

Some DM's use passive Insight vs. passive Bluff, but I think rolling the dice is more fun.

Issue 2: They avoid quests and combat

I’ve told them this is a pre-made adventure. They’ve managed to fail skill challenges (A man asked them to recover holy relics of Erathis. During the ‘bargaining’ skill challenge, they agreed to a price and *then* the half-orc demanded more and said if he didn’t get it, he’d sell them all to priests of Gruumsh. This is the day after a horde of goblinoids has attacked the town and killed many people) and they turned down the quest the priestess offered them.

That’s 300 XP they didn’t get. Plus the sidequest she was going to offer, which would have been 500 xp.

That was definitely a bonehead move, I don't see any reason why they should be awarded XP based on their actions. Keep in mind that the story won't always go as you expect, and sometimes will rarely go like you expect at all. Just try to roll with it. Keep your NPC's motivations in mind, and react how you think they would. Try to think of your world as a living, breathing place. Sometimes you will surprise yourself with what might happen.

As they didn’t get the map she was offering, I decided to throw a cave bear at them as they traveled to the location. I thought it would be funny if they found a bear cub going through their backpacks at camp and then a mother bear charged in.

Big mistake! They refuse to fight the bear because it’s just protecting its cub. I’ve told them that they don’t have to kill it and that I would never make them orphan a bear cub. Instead of fighting the bear, they all want to sneak off and have the ranger use ‘nature’ to calm it.

If I let them do it, that’s 600 xp they won’t get. If I force the attack, they’re now scattered about and I’m railroading them into a fight.

How should I deal with this?

This is a fantastic opportunity for a skill challenge. Stealth skills, athletics, diplomacy for the ranger maybe? Upon successful completion of the skill challenge, give them XP for chasing the bear off/calming it.

My skill challenge knowledge is a little fuzzy, so follow the instructions in the DMG for building a skill challenge. I'm sure someone in this thread could chime in with good suggestions on that though.

In a situation like this I'd let the PC's suggest an applicable skill and tell me with a description of what their character is doing how it would be applicable. Then they make the roll, and fail or succeed based on your DC.

Penalties for failure: The bear is angered and charges, leading to combat.

 

[twilsemail]

Greetings all!

Salutations!

Issue 1: Player assumptions about the setting

Players should generally be told what their setting is. If it's a generally accepted fact that Drow =! Evil, then the PCs should flat know that. If you were playing in a game in a modern setting and filled your car with gas/petrol and you GM laughed at you as you destroyed the car that runs on water... You'd probably be pretty peeved that he didn't clue you in to that setting change. Somethings a charater just knows.

Example 1: The players are convinced that ogres are dumb.

Your Ogres sound a bit like Oni to me. You may want to check out MM 200 for some info on them. That might help clear up some confusion.

Example 2: The players are convinced that all drow are evil.

Unless you tell them explicitly otherwise, that's a very safe assumption. It's written in every piece of text about Drow pretty much ever (Eberron aside).

She asked to speak with them privately, lead them to a temple of Lolth, [...] he wouldn’t help because drow are evil and Lolth is evil.

Again, renaming the Demon Spider Goddess to something a bit less... demon-spider goddess-y might be a good idea. At least if she's not evil in your setting. She's kind of the epitome of evil in most settings.

Issue 2: They avoid quests and combat

It happens to everyone at some point. Players get distracted.

Big mistake! They refuse to fight the bear because it’s just protecting its cub. I’ve told them that they don’t have to kill it and that I would never make them orphan a bear cub. Instead of fighting the bear, they all want to sneak off and have the ranger use ‘nature’ to calm it.

If I let them do it, that’s 600 xp they won’t get. If I force the attack, they’re now scattered about and I’m railroading them into a fight.

How should I deal with this?

That's not really a missed opportunity for them at all. Just run it (as suggested above) as a skill challenge. Stealth for the party. Nature for the Ranger. I'm sure you can think of others that might apply. Check out DMG and DM2 for ideas.

 

[IronWolf]

Issue 1: Player assumptions about the setting

Example 1: The players are convinced that ogres are dumb.

In my setting, ogres are slightly more intelligent than humans are, but my players “know” ogres are stupid. Several of them have played DnD previously and it’s just a given in their mind. Again, they don’t roll monster knowledge checks, even when I suggest they do so in battle.

Is it common knowledge that ogres are slightly more intelligent than humans in your setting? If so I would state as much straight up in the OOC section of your PbP. Let them know that their characters would know this, that it is common knowledge for your setting.

And then to further reinforce this within the game, make sure to play the ogres as intelligent. Good tactics, hygeine, mannerisms and speech.

Example 2: The players are convinced that all drow are evil.

Is it a case that some drow are evil and some are not? If so I can certainly understand the party being distrustful that the seemingly innocent drow is really an evil drow trying to seem innocent. PCs often have a healthy sense of paranoia.

Issue 2: They avoid quests and combat

... I decided to throw a cave bear at them as they traveled to the location. I thought it would be funny if they found a bear cub going through their backpacks at camp and then a mother bear charged in.

Big mistake! They refuse to fight the bear because it’s just protecting its cub. I’ve told them that they don’t have to kill it and that I would never make them orphan a bear cub. Instead of fighting the bear, they all want to sneak off and have the ranger use ‘nature’ to calm it.

If I let them do it, that’s 600 xp they won’t get. If I force the attack, they’re now scattered about and I’m railroading them into a fight.

It sounds like they have a non-combative way to deal with this issue. XP does not have to be awarded for killing enemies in an encounter. You can still award it for creatively avoiding or otherwise working through the encounter. Let the ranger shine! And then award the XP as normal.