D&D 5E Bel - Not Your Average Pit Fiend

[Jimbro]

Hey all! Finishing up a 5e campaign and the ultimate villain is Bel, former duke of Avernus (first layer of the Nine Hells). I'm hoping to get some feedback on this baddy before I throw the empowered version at my players. Note, Bel is EXTRA powerful because the players have unwittingly helped him gain a ton of extra power. Let me know. High CR monsters are hard to design (even when they are basically a really tough pit fiend).

Bel is attached and in the link below!

https://worldbuilderblog.me/2016/12/01/bel-not-your-average-pit-fiend/

 

[Dausuul]

Whoo, that's a handful, all right. Thoughts:

• The PCs are massively rewarded for investing in fire resistance/immunity. Between the 1/day meteor swarm, the flaming sword, and the 91-damage fire breath up to three times per round, Bel's fire damage output is staggering compared to his other attacks. This isn't a bad thing--I like that the party is rewarded for making smart preparations--but if they go in without fireproofing, odds of TPK go way up.
• Those save DCs are... high. PCs without proficiency will fail them even on a natural 20. Just sayin'.
• Between Limited Magic Immunity, Legendary Resistance, and immunity to both fire and cold damage, casters will have a very tough time with Bel. His defenses against martial PCs seem rather weaker; assuming the party is well supplied with magic weapons, he's relying on that 25 AC to stop them. Is that sufficient? I don't know what your PCs are packing for attack bonuses, but high-level warriors can burn through hundreds of hit points very very fast.

 

[Jimbro]

Whoo, that's a handful, all right. Thoughts:

• The PCs are massively rewarded for investing in fire resistance/immunity. Between the 1/day meteor swarm, the flaming sword, and the 91-damage fire breath up to three times per round, Bel's fire damage output is staggering compared to his other attacks. This isn't a bad thing--I like that the party is rewarded for making smart preparations--but if they go in without fireproofing, odds of TPK go way up.
• Those save DCs are... high. PCs without proficiency will fail them even on a natural 20. Just sayin'.
• Between Limited Magic Immunity, Legendary Resistance, and immunity to both fire and cold damage, casters will have a very tough time with Bel. His defenses against martial PCs seem rather weaker; assuming the party is well supplied with magic weapons, he's relying on that 25 AC to stop them. Is that sufficient? I don't know what your PCs are packing for attack bonuses, but high-level warriors can burn through hundreds of hit points very very fast.

Good points all around. I based (or stole) many of these points from Tiamat in RoT, but she has a lot more than just fire going on. Thanks!!!! Really helpful!

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

You might want to check out the work in this thread. I've given you the link to page two, where you can find a beefed up Pit Fiend (Bel isn't done yet). It might provide inspiration.

 

[dave2008]

Pretty cool, thank you for sharing Jimbro. I do have a question though, why did you make Bel CR 30. Typically he is the least of the Nine (and officially he is not even that anymore), and he is also typically much weaker than Orcus (CR 26) or Demogorgon (CR 26 or 27).

In addition, his damage output is way to high:

round 1: Meteor swarm @ 280(min) + 3 Fire Breath @ 182 each (for multiple targets) = 826
round 2: Multiattack @ 184 + 3 Fire Breath @ 182 each (for multiple targets) = 730
round 3: Multiattack @ 184 + 3 Fire Breath @ 182 each (for multiple targets) = 730

That is an average damage of at least 762 hp of damage, which is over 2x the amount listed in the DMG for CR30. And of course his high attack bonus and DC would push up the attack CR by 2.

I would at least suggest taking his breath weapon down to a once per round 3 action cost legendary action. He would still be overpowered, but much more reasonable.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I would move fire breath to an action, power it up, and make it a recharge (5-6). Then replace it in the Legendary Actions with cast a spell. If you are going to keep the same list as you already have, then make it cost 2 Legendary Actions; replace meteor swarm with something like mass suggestion and you might be able to get it down to 1 LA. Alternatively, she could use a LA to summon a weak fiend (a spined devil or hell hound) that could appear next to a squishy PC (a wizard who has to spend his/her action to defend him/herself against a hellhound doesn't have time to blast you).

That way you would be either fire breath or multiattack for the action, and you could use spells (or summoned flunkies) if she gets in an artillery duel with PC's.

 

[dave2008]

I would move fire breath to an action, power it up, and make it a recharge (5-6). Then replace it in the Legendary Actions with cast a spell. If you are going to keep the same list as you already have, then make it cost 2 Legendary Actions; replace meteor swarm with something like mass suggestion and you might be able to get it down to 1 LA. Alternatively, she could use a LA to summon a weak fiend (a spined devil or hell hound) that could appear next to a squishy PC (a wizard who has to spend his/her action to defend him/herself against a hellhound doesn't have time to blast you).

That way you would be either fire breath or multiattack for the action, and you could use spells (or summoned flunkies) if she gets in an artillery duel with PC's.

These are good suggestions, but probably still to strong if your using the DMG guidelines. Since his damage should be approx. 280hp per round (CR 28 damage since his to hit is so high) his fire breath would have to about 1/2 as strong to make this work.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

For one thing I would give him some of the pit fiend powers they had in the play test but were cut which I have given to all my pit fiends to make them a bit more menacing (Along with shapeshifting and 1/year Wish to help with tempting.)

Sign of Agony (Recharge 6): The pit fiend inscribes a blasphemous sigil in the air that burns with unholy light and fills creatures that see it with horrific pain. Any nondevil the pit fiend chooses that can see the sigil must make a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw. Failed Save: The creature is paralyzed and takes 7 (2d6) psychic damage at the start of each of its turns for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect early on a successful save.

Wing Slam: When a creature moves within 10 feet of the pit fiend, it can smash the creature with its wings. The target must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw. Failed Save: 15 (2d6 + 8) bludgeoning damage, and the target falls prone.

Anyway I would not make him CR 30 myself. I don't think he should be stronger then the strongest lords of the Abyss. Even powered up.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

I like it!

However, as it stands, Bel seems like a challenge for high optimization players only. Hitting him, making saves against his DCs or avoiding his attacks is quite difficult for many less than optimal players. Given this, could you tell us what your players have going for them? It may help if you know beforehand what their odds are as of now, and then adjust or keep your design accordingly.

 

[Jimbro]

Hey thanks for all this feedback! Super helpful all around.

The DMG guidelines don't worry me too much, since many of the monsters in the MM don't follow the guidelines. I'm looking at the two CR 30 monsters I have (Tiamat and Tarrasque.... which have a big power difference... guessing 30 is the CR cap) and I'm going from there.

I definitely have a party of optimizers. I want to challenge them for sure, but not kill 'em outright.

Also re: Bel's power, he's basically become a god at this point, which is why I'm shooting for CR 30... because that's where Tiamat was and she's the only officially statted out god so far.

I'm just explaining my own reasoning here. Thank you all so much. This is awesome.