D&D General Ben Riggs interviews Fred Hicks and Cam Banks, then shares WotC sales data.

[Alzrius]

Here's Krisp's summary of the video:

Introduction to DND Out Loud

• The episode begins with music and a welcome to the audience from Ben Riggs, the host of DND Out Loud.
• Ben introduces the episode as Episode 76 and mentions that it features an interview with Fred Hicks and Cam Banks.
• He shares that he will be discussing leaked sales data related to Dungeons and Dragons during the interview.

Introduction of Guests

• Ben introduces Cam Banks as the Kiwi Conjurer, known for his work on the Cortex system, which has been utilized in various franchises including Firefly and Marvel.
• Cam is described as an unflappable and unstoppable figure in the gaming industry.
• Fred Hicks is introduced next as the co-founder of Evil Hat Productions, recognized for transforming indie passion into successful publishing ventures.
• Fred is noted for his contributions to the gaming industry, particularly in building the future of tabletop role-playing games.

Tribute to Rob Wheelen

• Ben begins a serious discussion by mentioning the recent passing of Rob Wheelen, who was a significant figure in the role-playing game community.
• He describes Rob as a brotherly figure and highlights his notable work covering role-playing games for Forbes magazine.
• Ben expresses the impact of Rob's coverage on many game designers, emphasizing it as a career highlight for them.
• Fred Hicks is commended for his generous donation to Rob's widow, showcasing the supportive nature of the gaming community.
• The discussion reflects on Rob's contributions to various gaming projects and his early support for the Fate system.

Game Design and Business Insights

• Ben shifts the conversation towards the business side of game design, asking Fred and Cam how they navigate the balance between creating great games and great products.
• Fred explains that at Evil Hat, game selection is based on the collective passion of the core staff, emphasizing the importance of enthusiasm for the project.
• He mentions that the goal is to find great games and help them evolve into successful products.
• Cam adds that when he is not passionate about a project, he prefers to defer it to someone else who has a stronger connection to it.
• The discussion highlights the significance of genuine interest in game development to enhance both the product's quality and its reception.

Sales Data Discussion

• Ben reveals that he has obtained leaked financial data from Wizards of the Coast regarding Dungeons and Dragons sales over the years.
• He presents a comparison of sales figures from 2013, where D&D grossed $15.5 million, to 2019, where sales skyrocketed to $71.1 million.
• The data shows a significant shift in revenue streams, particularly highlighting the role-playing game category's growth.
• Fred and Cam discuss the implications of this data, noting that the rise in sales correlates with the resurgence of interest in tabletop gaming and the influence of actual play shows like Critical Role.
• They analyze the factors contributing to this growth, including the impact of media exposure and the evolution of gaming systems.

Current Trends and Future Directions

• The conversation transitions to current trends in the gaming industry, with a focus on the rise of digital platforms and online sales.
• Ben mentions the success of DriveThruRPG and its contribution to the overall sales landscape of role-playing games.
• Fred shares insights on how Evil Hat has adapted to these changes, emphasizing the importance of staying relevant in a rapidly evolving market.
• Cam discusses his current projects, including a new game inspired by popular genres, and the challenges of working within the industry.
• The discussion concludes with reflections on the collaborative nature of game design and the importance of community support in driving success.

Closing Remarks and Future Engagement

• As the episode wraps up, Ben thanks Cam and Fred for their insights and contributions to the conversation.
• He encourages listeners to engage with the ongoing projects and support the creators in the tabletop gaming community.
• The episode ends with a reminder of the importance of passion and community in the world of tabletop role-playing games.

 

[Stalker0]

You would have to compare it to 5.0s best year. That was the peak not 2014.

Right, so until we see those numbers I think stating 5e has peaked is incorrect. I know from quotes that 2024 has outsold 2014, but that is still vague on details (is that for the year 2014, is that for the best the 2014 edition ever did, etc).

 

[Parmandur]

Also I didn't know quite how much they were making off of Drive Thru. That kinda floored me. Made me think of how much must they be making from DNDBeyond... maybe.

I'm kind of shocked that DDi was still moving the needle financially in the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand and Nineteen, five years after 5E dropped. Mad respect.

I'm just finishing my coffee break, so I'm not goijg to sojrce this now, but didn't it come out that WotC D&D income is 60%+ direct sales now through Beyond? I see no particular reason to suspect that their income has decreased recently.

 

[Parmandur]

Right, so until we see those numbers I think stating 5e has peaked is incorrect. I know from quotes that 2024 has outsold 2014, but that is still vague on details (is that for the year 2014, is that for the best the 2014 edition ever did, etc).

The first month of 202r PHB sales exceeded the first two years of 2014 PHB sales. Which is bonkers as those exceed lifetime PHB sales for 3E, 3.5, or 4E individually.

 

[SlyFlourish]

Peak meaning sales?

We have already seen other quotes that 2024 has outsold 2014 at least in the initial year, so certaintly didn't peak in the timeframe quoted. It seems to still be going.

We heard that 2024 sold faster than D&D 2014 (or anything else) but not that it ever sold more. It certainly sold more in its first year, so far, but that's to be expected given how much bigger the TTRPG hobby is now. I wouldn't bet that the 2024 sales curve stays similar to the 2014 sales curve. I would seriously doubt it.

 

[Umbran]

We heard that 2024 sold faster than D&D 2014 (or anything else) but not that it ever sold more.

What could "selling faster" mean other than "selling more during the analogous period for the previous game"?

 

[Reynard]

It feels weird that in less than 10 posts this thread turned into a defense of 2024 D&D, instead of discussing the ramp in popularity (and profit) of 2014 D&D and the things that might have influenced that.

 

[Stalker0]

It feels weird that in less than 10 posts this thread turned into a defense of 2024 D&D, instead of discussing the ramp in popularity (and profit) of 2014 D&D and the things that might have influenced that.

It is a discussion of sales numbers, and so has come to include a discussion of 2024. The question was really around, ok we see this huge growth between 2013 and 2019....does that trend continue with our new half edition or have things slowed down? That was the debate, and a perfectly reasonable one when discussing sales numbers.

 

[Reynard]

I think the most interesting bit is how most of that growth is in the actual game as opposed to also with all the side stuff. I wonder if that is what fueled the discussions about monetization of the brand. But if that were the case, why was there never a real push to get the novel market back (fort example)?

 

[darjr]

We heard that 2024 sold faster than D&D 2014 (or anything else) but not that it ever sold more. It certainly sold more in its first year, so far, but that's to be expected given how much bigger the TTRPG hobby is now. I wouldn't bet that the 2024 sales curve stays similar to the 2014 sales curve. I would seriously doubt it.

Somewhere someone at WotC posted it sold more in its first months than the first year of 2014, or something like that.