Ben Riggs Releases Historical Sales Numbers for D&D Settings

[AbdulAlhazred]

Maybe that's not what the RSR accounts actually showed, and they counted retailer orders from 1979? That actually makes more sense than a revival of the OD&F book like 4 or 6 years in.

Yeah, the original GH LBB came out in 1975, and I can assure you nobody was buying it in 79/80 time frame, it would have been nearly impossible to find. Those books were only printed in TINY print runs by the standards of later stuff. That supplement was also NOT a setting, even though the title might suggest it was, there's nothing whatsoever in the book about the WoG or Gary's campaign, not even a paragraph! I assume the title was meant to convey that the material was originally developed FOR his campaign and used there.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The only one I ever owned firsthand was From the Ashes, interestingly, having been introduced to Greyhawk through a copy of the Greyhawk Wars wargame I received as a Christmas present; my copies of World of Greyhawk and Oriental Adventures were bought second hand, years later. That the latter continued to have some sales into the early 2e era is consistent with what I thought was happening, back then.

Yeah, OA is pretty compatible with 2e anyway. Its classes don't overlap with AD&D classes, and there's not really any significant mechanical rules changes between 1e and 2e that significantly impact PC classes. You can easily just adopt things like THAC0 and d10 initiative without any problems, if you even want to. Certainly anyone playing 2e can grok OA fine. There's some slight differences in the NWP rules and specialization rules you'd want to resolve, but nothing that requires a lot of work (and you can just ignore it if you don't mix OA with other 2e stuff). Later they did release some supplements with OA-like kits for 2e, but actual OA still has a lot of useful things in it, unlike the other 1e hardcovers which you don't really need for any reason to play 2e.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

When I first got the 2e PHB, I had recently started a huge AD&D campaign which was full of stuff missing in 2e: we had an illusionist, a monk and a cavalier-paladin from UA. It just felt natural to us to mix the two editions... For a long time, I had on the table the PHB, UA and 2e PHB.

Yeah, I think basically we never totally GAVE UP 1e stuff, we just used the 2e stuff unless there wasn't anything, and then we'd use 1e. So if you wanted to run an Assassin, an Illusionist, etc. you could just use the 1e class. Monks kind of got superseded by the OA version, mostly, but people used OA freely as well. Modules were of course not even really thought of as edition/game specific, we ran B2, the D series, and many others with 2e characters, it just didn't really matter. If a number was off by a point nobody could care less, really.

 

[Mannahnin]

Yeah, the original GH LBB came out in 1975, and I can assure you nobody was buying it in 79/80 time frame, it would have been nearly impossible to find. Those books were only printed in TINY print runs by the standards of later stuff. That supplement was also NOT a setting, even though the title might suggest it was, there's nothing whatsoever in the book about the WoG or Gary's campaign, not even a paragraph! I assume the title was meant to convey that the material was originally developed FOR his campaign and used there.

When Ben first posted these and Jon Peterson clarified that the small blue line is trailing sales of Supplement I, a few of us pointed out that it's a bit funny to include Supplement I, since it doesn't have any actual setting info, despite the title.

You're incorrect about the sales, though. Supplement I went through 12 printings, the last of them in November of 1979. That was the last print run for all five supplements to OD&D, though II and III only had 9 printings, IV 7 printings, and Swords & Spells had 6.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I don't think it helped that Greyhawk Adventures is also just kind of a bad book. Even Jim Ward concedes that he was super rushed writing it and couldn't get in adequate testing time for the novel mechanics, like the section on zero level characters. The cover art is classic, but I finally sold my copy off to a collector friend some years back (now kind of kicking myself, considering the prices today) because every time I read the thing I found it remarkably lacking in material I would actually want to use in a game.

Greyhawk Adventures might be one of the most disappointing purchases I have ever made. I need to caveat this somewhat.

WG7 (Castle Greyhawk) was the most infuriating.
The Survivor's Guides (Dungeoneers and Wilderness) might have been the saddest ... because that's when I began to realize that the 1e hardcovers were no longer a must-buy. They were just ... meh.

But GHA? It was like injecting pure disappointment into my veins. There was nothing (nothing) that was interesting or vital or alive about the material. When you read the older Greyhawk stuff (like the Folio and Campaign Setting), it was full of mysteries and hooks and made you want to start filling in those blanks. It fired up the imagination.

GHA was a wet blanket. The mechanics were useless, and the lore was ... meh. It lacked any magic or fire.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

When Ben first posted these and Jon Peterson clarified that the small blue line is trailing sales of Supplement I, a few of us pointed out that it's a bit funny to include Supplement I, since it doesn't have any actual setting info, despite the title.

You're incorrect about the sales, though. Supplement I went through 12 printings, the last of them in November of 1979. That was the last print run for all five supplements to OD&D, though II and III only had 9 printings, IV 7 printings, and Swords & Spells had 6.

Yes, but each print run was pretty small! I'm VERY VERY skeptical that Supplement 1 sold sold 25k copies in its entire existence, and I am even more skeptical it sold 25k copies in 1979 when it was a thoroughly obsolete book. I could almost believe that these numbers could represent the entire sales history of the supplement from 1975 to 1980 and things just weren't really properly booked back in the early days. It could have had something to do with dealing with Dave Arneson, for example.

 

[Zardnaar]

Actually, some people who tried 2e didn't like it and returned to 1e. I've read on an old school forum they continued buying 1e core books, for new players, after 2e was out.

1E phb was reprinted in 1990. Temple of Elemental Evil iirc was reprinted until 1994.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Yes, but each print run was pretty small! I'm VERY VERY skeptical that Supplement 1 sold sold 25k copies in its entire existence, and I am even more skeptical it sold 25k copies in 1979 when it was a thoroughly obsolete book. I could almost believe that these numbers could represent the entire sales history of the supplement from 1975 to 1980 and things just weren't really properly booked back in the early days. It could have had something to do with dealing with Dave Arneson, for example.

Supplements II-VI I would agree. Supplement I was pretty transformational to the game (I routinely contend that the largest change in the game didn't happen between editions, but within the initial version of the game). Suppl. I had the combat rules --for those not using Chainmail or having a copy of the alternate rules from that Strategic Review copy (or I think later it came in the LBB reprints); it had the thief class; it had significantly expanded attribute benefits; it had variable weapon damages; it took the classes with defined benefits (spells and thief abilities) out to the teens in level; and it took the spell levels out to Cleric 7 and MU 9. I can see a strong push to get that one, even if not all the others. Mind you, I know there were people who got the boxed LBBs and never needed anything else from TSR, but I also bet there were plenty of people who didn't want to get a whole new game with AD&D, but still wanted to get some of this expanded ruleset.

 

[Mannahnin]

Supplements II-VI I would agree. Supplement I was pretty transformational to the game (I routinely contend that the largest change in the game didn't happen between editions, but within the initial version of the game). Suppl. I had the combat rules --for those not using Chainmail or having a copy of the alternate rules from that Strategic Review copy (or I think later it came in the LBB reprints); it had the thief class; it had significantly expanded attribute benefits; it had variable weapon damages; it took the classes with defined benefits (spells and thief abilities) out to the teens in level; and it took the spell levels out to Cleric 7 and MU 9. I can see a strong push to get that one, even if not all the others. Mind you, I know there were people who got the boxed LBBs and never needed anything else from TSR, but I also bet there were plenty of people who didn't want to get a whole new game with AD&D, but still wanted to get some of this expanded ruleset.

I tend to concur. While today I know a few 1974 purists who dislike various things about the Greyhawk expansion, my recollection was that back in the day it was the supplement which everyone who had OD&D also bought. It makes perfect sense that it kept selling at least through 1979, as the AD&D DMG didn't come out until Aug 1979. Just to play D&D up until that point you more or less needed OD&D + Greyhawk (or the Holmes book, but that only covered you up to level 3).

There was also some percentage of players who saw AD&D as a cash grab and/or were sympathetic to Arneson, who didn't want to switch. I'm sure not a ton, but some. IIRC TSR also did at least a little marketing of the OD&D books, towards the end as collectors' items. While it's possible that Ben's numbers are off, 25k in 1979 doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Another ~20k in 1980, then dropping off to zero in 1981 seems like a reasonable timeline for that book to finish out by, in context of the time period.

 

[Nikosandros]

There was also some percentage of players who saw AD&D as a cash grab and/or were sympathetic to Arneson, who didn't want to switch. I'm sure not a ton, but some. IIRC TSR also did at least a little marketing of the OD&D books, towards the end as collectors' items.

When I first bought the PHB in 1986, there were still advertisements for the "collectors" White Box OD&D. I'm pretty sure that by then it was just a leftover that no one had bothered to remove from later printings, but back in the late seventies it was a thing. Of course, as a kid, I didn't care at all about the older version people used to play years before...