Best 3.5 pre-order prices: $17.62 each at Walmart ($52.86 + $5.88 S&H = $58.74)

[Mark]

Someone said that Walmart is able to sell at the prices they do because they have cut out the middleman in that process. If you say so. But I keep getting paid; wonder if anyone in my company got that memo. You see I work for Anderson Merchandisers who supplies nearly all of Walmart's video, books, and music products. There is no other way to describe what I do other than a "middleman". In the dictionary there's a picture of me waving under the word middleman. Guess I have a job that doesn't exist according to some people on this thread.

I don't work for Walmart but I work at Walmart so I see things from all sides. Please be informed on the subject before randomly guessing what occurs. But who am I to stop this rather "entertaining" discussion.

Here's your chance. Inform us now, please. What sort of deeper discounts, if any, does Walmart get that allows them to sell their gaming supplements so low? Thanks for speaking up.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Here's your chance. Inform us now, please. What sort of deeper discounts, if any, does Walmart get that allows them to sell their gaming supplements so low? Thanks for speaking up.

First off, I remember a similar thread that began about walmart carrying gaming books a couple of months ago. I posted to that thread saying who I worked for but I hadn't heard of any stores carrying books before and the books were not listed in any of the catalogs I use for work. However, no one responded to the questions I asked so I did some research on my own.

Walmart.com is what's driving this. Most stores are not going to carry the books. The book sections are plan-o-gramed months in advance and I just don't see stores carrying them unless they sell sci-fi/fantasy novels well.

As far as "deeper discounts" obviously I'm not privy to the specifics of whatever deal they struck with Hasbro/WotC thru us. If you take a look at any other hardcover similary priced book you'll likely see the same discount. For example, the newest Left Behind book is around $17-$18 at the store level. I believe the listed price is $25 at least. Walmart buys a major release like that for around $14-$15 if not lower. Their typical book margin is around 30%.

Let me clarify something about my original post. I didn't me to imply that EVERYONE was clueless about this issue. Just enough where I felt it necessary to chime in.

 

[fba827]

Here's your chance. Inform us now, please. What sort of deeper discounts, if any, does Walmart get that allows them to sell their gaming supplements so low? Thanks for speaking up.

I am not the person you asked this question of, nor do I claim to be an expert in the matter.

However, for a recent class (college) assignment a group I worked with had to do some (brief) investigations into just this type of thing.

Long story short (based on our findings), since Walmart has established itself as such a powerhouse, it is able to negotiate a lower price from suppliers ("We're a big company, if you want us to sell your product -- and you know we can , look at our numbers -- then you'll give us this rate on your product instead of the standard ...). Thus, they can offer it lower than the retail price others sell the item for and stil keep the standard profit margin. --- again, this is just based on what our research provided in the situations we had investigated for our project.

(But, having said all that, isn't this just getting way off topic at this point?)

 

[LightPhoenix]

Re: Support the Game Industry

A free economy is not just about the lowest price, it is about choice. Where you purchase from is what you choose to support.

<snip>

I concur. As you also say below (quoted later because I want to make another point with it), where and how you buy a product also is indicative of the value you place on it.

1) you send the message that you feel the D&D books are overpriced (which they aren't this is a rant of many manufactures who feel that rpgs are finally coming into the prices they should be at for the work they take to create)

Which is all fine and good, manufacturers are welcome to thier opinions. As are consumers. The difference is that manufacturers don't buy the books, consumers do.

I feel stupid for saying this, since it's basic economic theory and I'm sure everyone here has heard it, but demand is dependant on price - in general demand increases as price decreases. Now, if a majority of your market is buying from Walmart or where-have-you because it's 40% cheaper, that sends a message that, indeed, books are overpriced. And while you would be quick to blame Walmart and the Consumer for such an act, the blame is equally on the Manufacturer and Distributer. If they can't offer a service to their market at a price acceptable to the majority and someone else can, sales will go down. It's unfortunate for the "FLGS"s out there that this is the case, because there are several benefits which everyone has pointed out already that would be lost. Which is why an intelligent owner (and quite frankly, any intelligent investor) will diversify.

In the case of the FLGS, this means carrying other things besides RPG books. For example, a local, VERY successful FLGS (and it was very friendly) around here carried RPG materials, miniatures games, comics, some fantasy books, board games (some obscure, some not-so). They even expanded out to the mall, though incredibly high rental prices drove them out, and that's why the mall here is a bunch of corporate crap.

Sorry, tangent.

And for the record, if anyone is from around here and remembers Twilight Games, it went out of business not because of flagging sales (quite the opposite actually), but because the owner's wife left him and it was started with her capital, which she wanted back. Ah, sweet sorrow.

2) you may send the message to WOTC that you'll buy through the mass chain stores, but then that just makes WOTC's demograhics flawed as hobby sales drop and mass market increase. If hobby stores and distributors die from lack of WOTC sales, then most of the 3rd party publiushers, miniature copmpanies, dice companies, card supplies etc are in trouble as well. It could put them out of business too.

First, I fail to see any connection between demographics and where a product is sold. If anything, I would argue the opposite - if the game is sold more publicly, and the consumer base increases, you get a better sample of demographics. Assuming you could make such a link in the first place, which I believe is dubious.

Second, if third party publishers die because they can't get their product out - well then, maybe next time they'll play the game better. Not to be mean, but that's the way a free market works. If you can't get your product out there, you suffer the consequences. That's why there's such a big advertising industry. You'll either see something like S&S, who teamed up with White Wolf; or you'll get small online companies, such as Malhavoc Press.

I personally want to support the gaming industry at all levels, Wal Mart doesn't serve the gaming industries interests except for prices that are to low IMHO. When D&D is just a simplifed boxed dungeon crawling adventure game on a mass market shelf or only an MMORPG and game stores are dead and gone, it is because you choose price over supporting the places that really care about the hobby.

Walmart serves the gaming industry by increasing consumer base and providing service at an acceptable price for a large portion of that consumer base.

And the whole D&D/mass-market stuff is hyperbole and has no point nor fact.

Some one said something about Hasbro being the best thing that happened to D&D. The truth was Peter Adkinsen and Ryan Dancy (both long term gamers) created the current business model. When WOTC was sold to Hasbro, it became purely about sales and profit, and not the love for the hobby that WOTC was started from or D&D was saved with.

One last comment. It's always about sales and profit. If it wasn't then D&D would be free, and would have been from the start.

But, as you said in the beginning, it's about choice. Some people choose to believe that it's wrong to buy from Walmart, some people choose to believe that it's right. In the end it's likely that neither side is right or wrong. Truth is a three-edged sword, after all.

 

[Mark]

I felt it necessary to chime in.

Don't think it isn't appreciated.

But, having said all that, isn't this just getting way off topic at this point?

To the contrary, I think it is getting to the heart of the issue and removing some of the emotional factors that tend to make the discussion less useful.

Notice what Talon Comics does to counteract the deep discount effect a large chain enjoys? He keep the price as low as he can without losing money and offers up free shipping on larger orders to satisfiy the consumers need to achieve the same savings they would at the big chain stores. In the end he attracts the customers that he wants (the ones who are buying more than just the core books) and doesn't worry too much about the ones that wouldn't be buying beyond the core books anyway. If, down the road, some of those core-book-only customers become higher spending consumers looking to expand their gaming library, they might recall Talon as one looking to give that fair deal to the customer and utilize his store for books that cannot be purchased at Walmart.

 

[fba827]

To the contrary, I think it is getting to the heart of the issue and removing some of the emotional factors that tend to make the discussion less useful.

Then I guess we're not in agreement as to what the topic of this thread is

Notice what Talon Comics does to counteract the deep discount effect a large chain enjoys? He keep the price as low as he can without losing money and offers up free shipping on larger orders to satisfiy the consumers need to achieve the same savings they would at the big chain stores. In the end he attracts the customers that he wants (the ones who are buying more than just the core books) and doesn't worry too much about the ones that wouldn't be buying beyond the core books anyway. If, down the road, some of those core-book-only customers become higher spending consumers looking to expand their gaming library, they might recall Talon as one looking to give that fair deal to the customer and utilize his store for books that cannot be purchased at Walmart.

See, there in lies two aspects that has largely not been referenced in most of this thread.

First, that places such as Walmart and Talon have different target audiences and different business models. Their approaches are going to be different.

Secondly, the price paid does not just purchase the product but also the purchasing experience included.

To make any statements about which purchasing experience is better "for the gaming community to save the hobby" makes the assumption that each person has the same relative value ranking. When in truth, we all have differing relative value rankings.

For example, I may have: built relationship, clean store, friendly service, prompt response on all my emails (or little "on hold time"), physical location (can I walk in the mall and flip through books, etc), per book cost as my order where as another person may have per book cost at top and everything else below it, etc.

Or even if two people both have bottom line dollar figure as the ultimate deciding factor at the top of their value list, then different stores may offer different options that work better for some than others. Perhaps a slightly higher per book value but free shipping works out cheaper for you than lower per book cost but cost of shipping extra.

(my point, there are just so many factors here and most of these factors are so highly individualized)

Different stores and experiences are available for the different types of consumers. Each consumer will, of course, do what they want to do and choices will ultimately shape and define the general market.

Presuming a person is intelligent enough to understand their decision (and that there is no imposed duress), the consumer will ultimately purchase the item how/when/where it works for them, personally.

To try and analyze this more would result in the need for supply and demand graphs as well as detailed discussions on economic theory and, frankly, I'm getting enough of that in micro and marco econ

I'm having so many flashbacks to various boring professors that I must stop thinking about this.

(final clarification: Mark, nothing here is directed at you despite the fact that your post was quoted. There are several things here meant as references to things said in previous posts of this thread. I am merely explaining here since your post provided a good responding point )

 

[Mark]

Then I guess we're not in agreement as to what the topic of this thread is

heh heh Good one...

See, there in lies two aspects that has largely not been referenced in most of this thread.

First, that places such as Walmart and Talon have different target audiences and different business models. Their approaches are going to be different.

Secondly, the price paid does not just purchase the product but also the purchasing experience included.

To make any statements about which purchasing experience is better "for the gaming community to save the hobby" makes the assumption that each person has the same relative value ranking. When in truth, we all have differing relative value rankings.

For example, I may have: built relationship, clean store, friendly service, prompt response on all my emails (or little "on hold time"), physical location (can I walk in the mall and flip through books, etc), per book cost as my order where as another person may have per book cost at top and everything else below it, etc.

Or even if two people both have bottom line dollar figure as the ultimate deciding factor at the top of their value list, then different stores may offer different options that work better for some than others. Perhaps a slightly higher per book value but free shipping works out cheaper for you than lower per book cost but cost of shipping extra.

(my point, there are just so many factors here and most of these factors are so highly individualized)

Different stores and experiences are available for the different types of consumers. Each consumer will, of course, do what they want to do and choices will ultimately shape and define the general market.

Presuming a person is intelligent enough to understand their decision (and that there is no imposed duress), the consumer will ultimately purchase the item how/when/where it works for them, personally.

To try and analyze this more would result in the need for supply and demand graphs as well as detailed discussions on economic theory and, frankly, I'm getting enough of that in micro and marco econ

I'm having so many flashbacks to various boring professors that I must stop thinking about this.

(final clarification: Mark, nothing here is directed at you despite the fact that your post was quoted. There are several things here meant as references to things said in previous posts of this thread. I am merely explaining here since your post provided a good responding point )

No problem. I enjoy the discourse.

I think it bears mentioning that Talon's target market used to include the people that only buy the core books and in some regions that is still true for the FLGS. He may still have many loyal followers who would forego discounts and purchase from him based on his past service. But as times change and the hobby grows it's folks like Talon (who have learned to adapt their marketing) that will survive, and folks like the ones mentioned in various "Not So" fLGSs that will fall by the wayside. The internet has also changed things drastically and the growth of the hobby has pushed for store owners to change their marketing while others remain stagnant.

I've got three nephews and will likely foist some of my gaming hobby on them for the next holiday season by way of gifts. I'm not even sure where the nearest Walmart is to me (odd, perhaps, since I live in the heart of Chicago), so I patronize the FLGSs. I've got a local store that takes good care of the Chicago Gamedays (Game-Plus.com) and has earned my sales. If you do not have a loccal shop, can find a way to pick up a couple of d20 books (or some minis) along with your 3.5 core book purchase, then Talon has certainly made an offer thaqt rivals Walmart's discount, IMO.

 

[Gizzard]

Mark said:

I think you've not only missed the point of my analogy...

No, no, I understood that you intended it to be about the censorship issue. I thought it applied more widely though - to pretty much everything - when it gets focussed down to "Can ThingMart do whatever it wants?" (I may have sounded hostile to your idea by saying 'LOL' but I just meant that I found the ThingMart analogy funny. It reminded me of the old Forgotten Rums rant and made me laugh.)

Light Phoenix said:

Now, if a majority of your market is buying from Walmart or where-have-you because it's 40% cheaper, that sends a message that, indeed, books are overpriced. And while you would be quick to blame Walmart and the Consumer for such an act, the blame is equally on the Manufacturer and Distributer.

I disagree with this. As the Internet Bubble proved, if some fool offers something of value for free, there will be many many people who take him up on this offer. It doesn't mean that the original item was overpriced when it wasn't free!

My understanding of WalMart's business model (and AlphaOmega can correct me if I am wrong) is that they offer exceptionally low prices by 1) buying in very large quantities, 2) offering "loss leader" products to get people into the store. This business model is very solid and allows them to discount deeply without flaming out like a Pets.com.

The downside of the first business practice (large quantities) is that it puts a premium on high-volume items. And my problem with that in relation to this discussion is that RPG supplements are not high-volume items. Therefore they're not likely to be carried by WalMarts.

A WalMart.Com runs on a bit different model (apparently!) and I'd have to check to see whether they're making money or losing it before I tried to figure out how selling small volume d20 modules fits into their plans. (Which brings me back to the idea of the Internet Bubble. ;-)

-edit to add proper quote attributions -

 

[Mark]

No, no, I understood that you intended it to be about the censorship issue. I thought it applied more widely though - to pretty much everything - when it gets focussed down to "Can ThingMart do whatever it wants?" (I may have sounded hostile to your idea by saying 'LOL' but I just meant that I found the ThingMart analogy funny. It reminded me of the old Forgotten Rums rant and made me laugh.)

I didn't take it wrongly when you had the "LOL" in there but I really did think you missed the point. Rereading what you wrote I can see now you were using it to springboard and broaden the discussion. My bad.

BTW, make sure to edit your post to include the name of the person you are quoting, please. Someone just scanning might believe that both quotes are from me, rather than from myself and LightPhoenix because I have no agreement with his "overpriced" stance whatsoever.

Even with the costs inherent in WotC's production (and subsequent printing) of books, I think that gaming supplements are some of the best value for entertainment dollar that exists. The multiple use factor that comes with our hobby supplies is tremendous, IMO. Once you start looking at what d20 publishers pay for their smaller print runs, and realize that not being a large company incurs more costs than it avoids, you really have to feel a bit for the small d20 publisher who is trying to put out such great material (in a lot of cases) on what amounts to a shoestring of profit.

 

[drnuncheon]

Ah, but would the makers of D20 products continue to produce D20 stuff for such a small niche market?

The whole of gaming is a small niche market, but that has never stopped people from writing and publishing their own completely new games.

The internet hasn't done it, d20 hasn't done it. There will always be someone out there who thinks "I can do better".

Saying "Walmart will be the end of gaming" is the same kind of Chicken-Littleing (or should that be Cry Wolf-ing?) that seems to go on every couple of months in the online gamer community. It used to be "The Book of Vile Darkness will be the end of gaming." Some time before that it was "d20 will be the end of gaming". Before that it was BADD and the fundies.

We're still here.

J
is for jaded, apparently