Best bang for the buck for a level-adjusted race?

[risner]

I tend to play characters with racial HD. Here is my top list in order of interest:

Murrlurk (Sandstorm p171)
3 Racial HD (Monstrous Humanoid)
great stats, great hearing, Darkvision, Sneak Attack, bonus racial feats
LA +2

Lumi (MMIII p98)
2 Racial HD (Outsider)
good stats, Immune to 17 effects including vorpal and death effects, SLAs, Improved Initiative as racial bonus feat
LA +2

Centaur (MMI)
Pretty good for 4 Monstrous Humanoid/LA +2

 

[insanogeddon]

One Word

were-rat

Do not be mislead by other therianthropes. the rats the win !

War Shaper from 'complete warrior' just adds insult to injury !!

 

[Theroc]

were-rat

Do not be mislead by other therianthropes. the rats the win !

War Shaper from 'complete warrior' just adds insult to injury !!

Why is the wererat superior to the other therianthropes? Enlighten me, as you've piqued my curiousity.(Being a fan of Weretiger myself, and a fan of Therianthropy in general[though confused and discouraged by alignment snafu as mentioned in another thread])

 

[jedavis]

I'm a fan of races with low LA and no HD. My feral half-ogre (SS) barbarians have been banned... who needs a greataxe when you do just as much damage with claws and can improved grab and grapple like nobody's business? Plus, the feral template version of improved grab has a clause to the effect of "whenever you win a grapple check, you deal claw damage," which leads to obscene damage output.

On 'thropes: I prefer weretiger as well. Weretiger + barbarian 1 dip for rage + druid (for buffs) + warshaper results in a brutal melee combatant.

Finally, legends from a monstrous gestalt campaign: pixie spiked chain AoO rogue, ghoul true sorcerer (TruSorc doesn't have slots; casting deals subdual damage. Ergo, undead TruSorcs can cast all day long).

 

[insanogeddon]

Delayed response sorry

Were tiger is expensive: +2 Level Adjustment if afflicted, +3 if Natural
AND "Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form."

A rat is 1HD so that means you only need to buy one level where your getting the suck of..

Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.
Features: An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• d8 Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
• Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves).
• Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

A tiger is 6 HD
\
That means instead of being a afflicted were rat 8th level:
1 rat, 2 LA, 4 whatever, 1 war shaper

you are a

6 tiger, 2 LA, no class yet !!!!

thats a big difference whan it comes to attack bonus, skills, feats, ability score boosts for level etc etc.



Were Wolf being 2HD is okay as well.

The animal HD are the weakness.

 

[Theroc]

Were tiger is expensive: +2 Level Adjustment if afflicted, +3 if Natural
AND "Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form."

A rat is 1HD so that means you only need to buy one level where your getting the suck of..

Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.
Features: An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• d8 Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
• Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves).
• Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

A tiger is 6 HD

That means instead of being a afflicted were rat 8th level:
1 rat, 2 LA, 4 whatever, 1 war shaper

you are a

6 tiger, 2 LA, no class yet !!!!

thats a big difference whan it comes to attack bonus, skills, feats, ability score boosts for level etc etc.



Were Wolf being 2HD is okay as well.

The animal HD are the weakness.

I had no idea there was anything besides the LA inflating the ECL of a character.

 

[irdeggman]

I had no idea there was anything besides the LA inflating the ECL of a character.

ECL = Hit Dice (class levels + racial hit dice) + level adjustment

DMG pg 199-200

Take the level adjustment plus the Hit Dice to generate ECL.

MM pg 308

A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a minotaur has 6 HD and a +2 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of an 8th-level character.

From the SRD

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.

If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of “By character class” receive
NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.

 

[Theroc]

ECL = Hit Dice (class levels + racial hit dice) + level adjustment

DMG pg 199-200


MM pg 308


From the SRD

Sorry Irdegg, I should have been more specific. I meant a Lycanthrope Character. It was late and I wasn't being very specific/intelligent, I suppose.

 

[insanogeddon]

lol

You must have thought i had lost it...
Suggesting rat: +6 dex, +2 con
over Tiger: +12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con
if it was the same cost.

Unfort HD need to be considered.

Con and Str tend to make up for HD and attack bonus exp. if spring attacking or charging or bows or attack of opportunity tumble/reach build.

the other good one is lycanthrope (were wolf). 2 HD
for: +2 str, +4 dex, +4 con
and maybe boar +4 str, +6 con. 3 HD

The basics are what sells it tho not the animal: +2 wisdom, Iron Will as a bonus feat, +2 AC, DR 5 silver, scent, low light vision, Alternate form for spying/traveling/being ridden etc, empathy with your animal type for cool roleplaying opportunities and habits, the 'cursed hero' archetype you get to play to, and its basic and mythological not some abberation from a splat book.

Alignment: Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.

Digression:

Played a wild elf monk/kensai archer with a mate who was a wood elf rogue 1/ranger ++ 2wpn fighter (competative half-brothers in game..same dad different moms, he was a high elf sword man AND archer AND caster from a 2nd ed game that knocked up our moms and abandoned us but we sorta want to be as recognised/validated).. bastard children as we were in a further blow we we got lycanthropy... rat !
He took war shaper for +4 str and con and immune to crits.. control shape was a hassle sometimes but always in an amusing way: fire balled/turned into a rat dropping bow and having to fight as a poxy yet supprisingly effective rat... brother was a toughfer rat (we often fought as rats) but I had a magic bite, was fast, good AC, slow fall and immune to disease (in your face brother) due to monk. It was powerful and really memorable with heaps of roleplaying opps, great scouting fun/torture with the invis mage and his nasty familiar, and character content/room to for the DM to interact with to enrichen our specific imersion. Epic.

 

[Theroc]

You must have thought i had lost it...
Suggesting rat: +6 dex, +2 con
over Tiger: +12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con
if it was the same cost.

Unfort HD need to be considered.

Con and Str tend to make up for HD and attack bonus exp. if spring attacking or charging or bows or attack of opportunity tumble/reach build.

the other good one is lycanthrope (were wolf). 2 HD
for: +2 str, +4 dex, +4 con
and maybe boar +4 str, +6 con. 3 HD

The basics are what sells it tho not the animal: +2 wisdom, Iron Will as a bonus feat, +2 AC, DR 5 silver, scent, low light vision, Alternate form for spying/traveling/being ridden etc, empathy with your animal type for cool roleplaying opportunities and habits, the 'cursed hero' archetype you get to play to, and its basic and mythological not some abberation from a splat book.

Alignment: Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.

Digression:

Played a wild elf monk/kensai archer with a mate who was a wood elf rogue 1/ranger ++ 2wpn fighter (competative half-brothers in game..same dad different moms, he was a high elf sword man AND archer AND caster from a 2nd ed game that knocked up our moms and abandoned us but we sorta want to be as recognised/validated).. bastard children as we were in a further blow we we got lycanthropy... rat !
He took war shaper for +4 str and con and immune to crits.. control shape was a hassle sometimes but always in an amusing way: fire balled/turned into a rat dropping bow and having to fight as a poxy yet supprisingly effective rat... brother was a toughfer rat (we often fought as rats) but I had a magic bite, was fast, good AC, slow fall and immune to disease (in your face brother) due to monk. It was powerful and really memorable with heaps of roleplaying opps, great scouting fun/torture with the invis mage and his nasty familiar, and character content/room to for the DM to interact with to enrichen our specific imersion. Epic.

Yes, Insano, I was very confused as to why the rat was superior. Now realizing that the 'adding hit dice from animal' tacks on ECL(this hadn't occurred to me before), I am wondering even more if lycanthropy(besides maybe rat) is really that positive mechanically at all. It sounds like the affliction is really that, an affliction and not something that can really be twisted into something worth the ECL inflation.(Unless Warshaper is really THAT good.)

Hrm... this makes me even more reluctant to play a Lycanthrope in a game, as much as the concept appeals to me for RP reasons. Always loved the shapeshifting concept, but there are so many complications and penalties around Lycanthropy, I'm concerned it'd make any character I make ineffective in the long run.