D&D 5E Best gish (PHB only)

[UngeheuerLich]

I think SAD at lower levels is quite overrated. Just think about it that way:
at level 1 you need to invest quite heavily for at best +1 to hit/+1damage or 1 Spell DC. It only shows at higher level when you start increasing a single stat that enhances the gap between your best and your second best stat.

If you take standard human and use point buy, you can have 16/16/14/12/10/9. Or you can have 16/14/14/14/12/9 Both of those stat arrays would be more than good enough to be a passable tempest cleric. Compare those to the variant cleric with shilelagh from magic initiate: 16/16/13/10/10/8 or 16/14/14/12/10/8
What you get is 16 Wis, 16 Con and a 13 maybe in Str to not be slowed by chain armor.
The comparable stat array of the variant human would be 16 Wis, 14 Str and 16 Con, with a 12 left for Dex, Cha or Int. A little worse to hit, but you can use a better weapon (a battleaxe and a javelin once in a while).
You could also be a hill dwarf with 14 Str, 16 Con ,16 Wis. You hit a little worse, can still use better weapons and you even have 1 more hp per level and if you happen to get a plate armor, you are left with 5 more move speed
Instead of a dwarf, you could also be a wood elf cleric with 35 move speed, 16 Dex, a longbow and a rapier and 16 Wis. You don´t need as much con, as you can stay out of melee range well enough. Although you would not consider it a real gish, because as a gish you probably prefer melee.

 

[Esker]

I think SAD at lower levels is quite overrated. Just think about it that way:
at level 1 you need to invest quite heavily for at best +1 to hit/+1damage or 1 Spell DC. It only shows at higher level when you start increasing a single stat that enhances the gap between your best and your second best stat.

I agree that the benefits need to be weighed carefully against the cost, but OP specified standard array rather than point buy, so that increases the value; you can't start with two 16s and a 14 with standard array without being a vuman with a half-feat.

Standard human gets 16/15/14/13/11/9, which is just ugly. You gain literally nothing compared to the variant human with 16/14/14/12/10/8 except for the chance to get a free half-feat in one of your secondary stats, which you're unlikely to want to do at low levels.

So levels 1-3, shillelagh buys you +1/+1 to-hit and damage plus a magic weapon, if you spend your bonus action to cast it in the first round (or you were able to prepare for a round). At level 3 you're probably better off just casting spiritual weapon right away unless it's looking like a long battle. By level 4 it buys you +2/+2. Is that worth the opportunity cost of either war caster or being a race with darkvision and some other benefits? I don't know. But without shillelagh by level 5 you're probably going to want to just use a cantrip or a spell most of the time, and now you're no longer a gish really.

In the wood elf's case as you note you can start with 16s in both WIS and DEX even with standard array, so you even out the to-hit chance prior to level 4, but elf clerics don't actually get rapier proficiency so if you want to be in melee you'll probably use a shortsword, shaving a point off your damage relative to shillelagh even with matched stats.

The hill dwarf would start with 13 STR, not 14 STR, unless they take only 15 CON, so they're at -2/2 right from level 1 relative to the shillelagh user, going to -3/-3 at level 4.

 

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Paladin/Warlock(Tome) works for this. Shillelagh keys off Cha if you want. You'll want Paladin6 and Warlock3 for sure, and then it's a matter of what you like. Cha to saves, Cha to hit, Cha for spells, two sources of spells, smites, extra attack, heavy armor, EB, patron, rituals.

Anyway,

Ken

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I agree that the benefits need to be weighed carefully against the cost, but OP specified standard array rather than point buy, so that increases the value; you can't start with two 16s and a 14 with standard array without being a vuman with a half-feat.

Standard human gets 16/15/14/13/11/9, which is just ugly. You gain literally nothing compared to the variant human with 16/14/14/12/10/8 except for the chance to get a free half-feat in one of your secondary stats, which you're unlikely to want to do at low levels.

So levels 1-3, shillelagh buys you +1/+1 to-hit and damage plus a magic weapon, if you spend your bonus action to cast it in the first round (or you were able to prepare for a round). At level 3 you're probably better off just casting spiritual weapon right away unless it's looking like a long battle. By level 4 it buys you +2/+2. Is that worth the opportunity cost of either war caster or being a race with darkvision and some other benefits? I don't know. But without shillelagh by level 5 you're probably going to want to just use a cantrip or a spell most of the time, and now you're no longer a gish really.

In the wood elf's case as you note you can start with 16s in both WIS and DEX even with standard array, so you even out the to-hit chance prior to level 4, but elf clerics don't actually get rapier proficiency so if you want to be in melee you'll probably use a shortsword, shaving a point off your damage relative to shillelagh even with matched stats.

The hill dwarf would start with 13 STR, not 14 STR, unless they take only 15 CON, so they're at -2/2 right from level 1 relative to the shillelagh user, going to -3/-3 at level 4.

Oh. I miscalculated a bit. But to be fair, with standard array, a human with magic initiate will only have 14 CON too. So giving the dwarf 14 Str and 15 Con is not unrealistic. Especially when you plan on taking resilient con which at level 8 is slightly more reliable than warcaster.
I'd also point out that the dwarf would probably increase Str instead of Wis so he has -1/-1 /-1 compared to the human and that the human is well served taking warcaster to increase concentration saves.
The bonus of the dwarf will be 16 more hp at level 8. Better armor or 5ft more movement.
Probably a better magic weapon because he can use any weapon he likes and darkvision. A lot better Con saves. Not only a much higher bonus in general but also advantage against a very common Con saving throw.

For the elf: I thought tempest cleric has martial weapon proficiency.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Hi,

Paladin/Warlock(Tome) works for this. Shillelagh keys off Cha if you want. You'll want Paladin6 and Warlock3 for sure, and then it's a matter of what you like. Cha to saves, Cha to hit, Cha for spells, two sources of spells, smites, extra attack, heavy armor, EB, patron, rituals.

Anyway,

Ken

Would be cool, but game ends at level 8.

I offer a different one:
High elf abjurer with dual short swords. Shield spell is problematic but at level 2 you have quite a useful shield to be up to fighter level hp. You should prioritumize con over Int and take

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 10

You could take resilient con and warcaster. You can now safely cast haste at level 5 and probably not lose concentration. Mirror image is a spell without concentration. Level 4 has improved invisibility.

 

[Esker]

But to be fair, with standard array, a human with magic initiate will only have 14 CON too. So giving the dwarf 14 Str and 15 Con is not unrealistic. Especially when you plan on taking resilient con which at level 8 is slightly more reliable than warcaster.

Sure, so the human and the dwarf can both have a +2 in CON and STR to start. At level 1, the dwarf has darkvision, extra HP and a down payment on Resilient CON at level 8. The human has a feat, a skill, and 5' more speed. Let's assume war caster since I don't think I'd actually take magic initiate over that if it were me (I'd rather be a nature cleric if I were going to be weapon-focused through level 8, and get both shillelagh and war caster). Assuming war caster, either is free to increase STR or WIS as they see fit with the same implications for either. Assuming we don't care about the other benefits of war caster, starting at level 8, the dwarf can become better at concentration than the human and have many more HP, at the expense of boosting a stat. The dwarf may be ahead at this point; it's at least close. But since the campaign is ending at 8, I think the human (with war caster) is the better mechanical choice. The human with magic initiate (druid) I think doesn't offer enough without doing something else (such as taking first level in fighter).

For the elf: I thought tempest cleric has martial weapon proficiency.

Oh, you're right. I still had nature cleric in my head.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

[MENTION=6966824]Esker[/MENTION]: drawing drom your analysis I'd still give the dwarf the advantage. Darkvision at low levels is very useful as is even a few extra hp over the course of the day. Although earcaster sounds nice, I'd rather be able to pick a better gish domain than nature.

 

[Esker]

[MENTION=6966824]Esker[/MENTION]: drawing drom your analysis I'd still give the dwarf the advantage. Darkvision at low levels is very useful as is even a few extra hp over the course of the day. Although earcaster sounds nice, I'd rather be able to pick a better gish domain than nature.

I think the value of darkvision depends on the party. This character is not going to be stealthy and is unlikely to be the scout, so unless they would be the only one without darkvision, casting light on their shield is always an option. If going DEX and medium armor, not having darkvision would hurt more. In any case, the HP are an undeniable advantage of dwarf.

I'm not sure if your last sentence is meant to be connected to race choice or not. Does a dwarf have an easier time foregoing shillelagh than a human does? At the end of the day, I think any combination of dwarf/human and nature/tempest would be a fine choice. (Wood elf + trickery would be another good one; since they'll be DEX-based anyway, they don't miss the lack of heavy armor)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually it was meant to be related to race because only a human can pick warcaster as a feat at level 1. But picking nature domain as a dwarf is actually not a bad choice. He can make use of shilelagh and dump str to 13 and still be able to wear plate without penalty to speed.
I think your conclusion about race and (sub-)class choice is spot on. A lost +1 bonus here or there does not kill a character concept. You should however take care not to skip every +1 bonus and you should make sure that your choice gives you something that is as useful as a +1 bonus... and this entirely depends on circumstances lile campaign or co-companions or a random magic item.

Thank you for this discussion. Was fun.

 

[Esker]

Thank you for this discussion. Was fun.

Likewise!