Best Modern Game System

[Thanee]

Bearing in mind that Jonathan Tweet designed large parts of both Ars and 3rd ed - the use of the +\- modifiers for ability scores comes from this game, ...

Talislanta is about as old as Ars Magica and had a +/- system for abilities (without ability scores even, you get the modifiers directly as your ability score) since the beginning. I'm pretty sure it wasn't even the first one there. Basic D&D has the same system, just not linear since much longer.

Dice roll + Modifier vs Target Number is surely much older. It's just too obvious a system not to be used since ages already. I know Midgard has it (using a d20 with a fixed TN of 20) since the early eighties, as well as splitting 'hit points' into 'wounds' and 'vitality' (other names, though).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Committed Hero]

Talislanta is about as old as Ars Magica and had a +/- system for abilities (without ability scores even, you get the modifiers directly as your ability score) since the beginning.

IIRC Mr. Tweet developed the third edition of Talislanta around 1992 or so. The first edition of both games date back to around 1987. I wouldn't know if he knew Sechi back then.

Dice roll + Modifier vs Target Number is surely much older. It's just too obvious a system not to be used since ages already.

I agree that the mechanic is an obvious and hoary one, but the distillation of saves and attack modifiers, as well as skill rolls, to a <+X> results in a finished product identical to Ars Magica (True20 is even closer). One friend who had played no RPG but ArM picked up 3rd ed very easily as a result.

And thanks for the quote, psion

 

[jonrog1]

Fixed that for you. Welcome back, and keep up the great work!

Thanks, and I'll pass the praise on to Andy. Season Two starts up in production pretty soon.

 

[Aussiegamer]

.......
Etc...
A SHADE more math, but ultimately much more representative of what attributes are required for differing skills.
It reads cumbersome because it's an extra step, but it's only that extra step at creation and level-up.
I could live with that.

I started down this path, and have also coupled abilities for the HP mod, skill bonus. To hoipefully stop too much max / min for abilities.

 

[hobgoblin]

I only played Rolemaster a handful of times, and don't own those books.
But the system was so simple and realistic, it was awesome.

cant be the same then as what i recall is skill and skill groups, both having an effect on the test, and skills and skill groups having cost ladders (when past point X in skill the next Y levels of skill costs Z pr level and so on) that while having the same basic rules, would sometimes be different (either on group or even individual skill basis).

that and a combat system that made me go "huh?" every time i tried to read it, a magic system that made a wizard unplayable unless he only walked around in a bath robe (every x amount of dead matter and so on carried had a negative effect on the spellcasting), while psionics only had to worry about not wearing a helmet, and divine spellcasters had no limitation what so ever (that i recall), makes it a overloaded system in my view...

but i kinda liked the magic system with its list of spells as you increase in skill, and the special effects tables for when you score critical hits with elemental spells (nothing like reading that if you max out lighting on someone in iron armor the person is welded to the armor ).

so in the end, to me rolemaster will be one of those systems that is fun to keep on a shelf, but will never get any play time...

 

[jdrakeh]

Time to beat down this myth again.

In an interview by Tweet, he said the skill system was already in place when he joined the team, but mentioned that it resembled a system he already had.

Tweet's personal web page says:

"Ars Magica (1987, Lion Rampart): Designed this RPG with Mark Rein•Hagen. It's about wizards in a mythic version of the Middle Ages, with a remarkable magic system and a ton of good roleplaying content. If you want to see where the core system for the current edition of D&D comes from, pick up Ars Magica."

You can read this quote from Tweet in its original context on his home page here. He's either being dodgy in the Amazon interview, Amazon took his statement out of context (which, in fairness, they've been known to do), or he's telling a bald-faced lie on his own web page.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that his personal web page is the more authoritative source, thus I don't think it's a myth that Ars Magica influenced the design of D&D's core resolution mechanic

 

[Thanee]

It's certainly not unlikely, that previous work has influenced future work there. It's not like the designers want to reinvent the wheel with every game system they work on.

The only thing that's really revolutionary about 3E (IMHO) is the consequently superb Layout and the OGL, though.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Azgulor]

I would say that d20 Modern is sort of the "Microsoft Windows" of Modern gaming. It's not the perfect system for everybody, but the sheer weight of existing product, driven by market share, means that you can probably find or make rules to do what it is that you want it to do.

Spycraft2.0 is the "Apple" of Modern gaming. It's sleek, it's cool, it does the thing it does real well and it wants to do what Windows does on top of that. It doesn't have the market share of Windows, nor the depth of support or product base. It tries to make up for it with coolness and flexibility, doing alot of what you need add-ons to do with Modern, er, Windows with it's own bundled software. For a bundle, best-in-class, but you can find each individual piece of software in a more robust form on Windows.

Then GURPS is ... LINUX ... it's got the world at its fingertips, if anybody can figure out how the hell to use it.

So I'll put it this way ... I'd LIKE a Mac ... I HAVE a Windows box. I had a choice the last time I bought a computer, and I still bought a Windows box. When Mac is sleek and cool, Windows can sort of steal the thunder with a 3rd party product.

--fje

As an owner of all three systems, I have to say this is a great analogy!

Years ago (pre-d20 Modern or Spycraft), I switched to GURPS exclusively. While I love the game and found it flows very smoothly in play, I found I spent WAY too much time tweaking and building things rather than writing adventures or making up NPCs. Also, I found balancing encounters to be rather difficult to do with any accuracy (likely my shortcoming, not the game's). As my familiarity with d20 games increased and 3rd-party OGL and d20 license games started showing the versatility of the system (looking at you Conan, Grim Tales, d20 Modern, Spycraft) I dropped the system in favor of d20 games. GURPS is a great game and I would jump at a chance to play in a GURPS game. But from a GM perspective, I needed to discover it 10+ years ago.

While I dislike some elements of d20 Modern, there are enough 3rd-party tweaks that almost of what I perceive as shortcomings can be overcome. Plus I can run any type of game I want using that set of rules from fantasy, pulp, noir, technothriller, to sci-fi. It's enough of a toolkit that I can tinker and customize without losing sight of my goals for the campaign as I did with GURPS.

Spycraft is very cool. However, I find tweaking MDT easier to tweak than WP/VP. WP/VP works well for balancing abstract vs. real damage in some respects, less so in others. And while I love the Campaign Qualities' ability to customize Spycraft to other genres, I still found the core class and Back-to-Basics leaned too far towards the highly-cinematic end of the action scale. I did borrow certain subsystems (like Dramatic Conflicts) for my d20 games - they're too cool to pass up.

Azgulor

 

[Psion]

Tweet's personal web page says:

"Ars Magica (1987, Lion Rampart): Designed this RPG with Mark Rein•Hagen. It's about wizards in a mythic version of the Middle Ages, with a remarkable magic system and a ton of good roleplaying content. If you want to see where the core system for the current edition of D&D comes from, pick up Ars Magica."

You can read this quote from Tweet in its original context on his home page here. He's either being dodgy in the Amazon interview, Amazon took his statement out of context (which, in fairness, they've been known to do), or he's telling a bald-faced lie on his own web page.

I sort of think Tweet was being a bit dodgy/proud. That one statement sort of conflicts with stuff he was saying in the rest of the interview; it's like a gentle admission/slip that it wasn't "all him". Which to me, is the hallmark of a good interview.

 

[Committed Hero]

I sort of think Tweet was being a bit dodgy/proud. That one statement sort of conflicts with stuff he was saying in the rest of the interview; it's like a gentle admission/slip that it wasn't "all him". Which to me, is the hallmark of a good interview.

Again, though, it's obvious the designers of 3rd ed were familiar with Ars' system. WotC even had the rights to the game prior to the acquisition of TSR, and released at least one sourcebook for it.