D&D 3E/3.5 Best way to implement these in strict 3.5 rules?

[FireLance]

In my view, the best way to simulate a knockout blow is with a feat. Perhaps the following:

KNOCKOUT BLOW

Prerequisites: BAB +2, Sneak Attack +2d6

Benefit: When making a sneak attack against a flat-footed opponent (not one that is merely flanked) with a melee weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you deal twice your normal sneak attack damage. If you are able to make multiple attacks in a round, the doubled sneak attack damage only applies to your first attack.

 

[Drifter Bob]

The best way to capture PCs in just about any game (not just D&D; CoC might be an exception) is not to bother trying. It'll lead to tears, I guarantee.

The plot dosn't hinge on it, I just want the weapons to have a reasonable chance of working, so that it doesn't seem utterly ridiculous that they even tried.

DB

 

[jmucchiello]

I think for the ring, it's between an illusion or a charm / suggestion.

It's not a charm effect, it's a compulsion effect. Charm subschool spells can only make people like you. Compulsion tell them what to do. I know. I wrote a book on Enchantment. Someday it will be updated to 3.5.

Within that tome is the following spell:

Unnoted
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft. / 2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 minute / level (D)
Saving Throw: Special (Will negates)
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject of the spell seemingly disappears from view. In reality, everyone viewing the subject ignores that he is there. This only works as long as the subject of the spell does not do anything to attract attention to himself, no creature will see him. (Creatures with spell resistance get one roll against this spell effect.)
If the subject does something out of the ordinary, attacks or casts a spell, observers make a Will saving throw against this spell’s DC. Failure means they continue to ignore the subject. Success means they react normally to the unusual actions of the subject.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

3) is a powerful spell, probably 7-9th level, which has the effect of causing someone to spin aronud and around in the air (think of Gandalf spinning on the floor after Saruman defeats him in the 1st lord of the rings movie- though that is not the source for the spell). The caster can cause them to spin slowly while you interrogate, or you can cause them to spin in wide loops fom very high (say, 100') to very low. Finally, if the caster is not interrupted and does not choose to release her victim, she can cause them to spin at an exponentially increasing rate until they fly apart and die.

With DND you can simply describe the spell efects to be whatever you like. There is no "build" like in HERo, so pretty much just jot down what you want, put in the relevent specs and go from there.

Off hand, i would say close range or medium, duration in hours, probably VSM, the target held "helpless" while the spell is in effect and the caster can leave him at slow spin or he can speed him up. I would let the damage be con damage as thats relatively constant compared to HP. Give the victim a save or not depending on how high a level you want the spell to be. But a lethal spell on a failed save is probably 7th or better.

4) is a combat issue from the same campaign as the one with the Imp. When I run my game we use pretty extensive house rules for combat, so sometimes things happen which I'm not later certain how to convert into D&D rules.

This is where you probably would get into trouble.

This is when the players are about 4th level. If they aren't very careful in a particlar area where their guard is probably down, they will get ambushed by some footpads, who use saps to attack from concealment. The footpads seek to capture one or more party members and make off with them in a boat. In our house rules

You know what a sap is of course, this is like a leather sock full of lead shot or even sand, which has been used since time immemorial to quickly knock people out to rob or kidnap them, or just to silence them. The way a sap should work, if you are moderately skilled in the weapon, and can attack someone who isn't wearing a helmet and /or heavy armor from surprise, you should be able to have a good chance of knocking them out. Even if you don't surprise them, a few blows to the head or the back of the neck should be enough to drop most people.

OK see, now you are talking realistic effects.

Most people will be killed by a few run throughs by a sword.
Most people would be incinerated, or at least incapacitated and blinded, by a fiery dragons breath.
Most people would be crushed by a giant's rock.
Most people would not be able to do most of what epic fantasy heroes do and what the DND system allows.

The sap already exists in DND. it like the other weapons has a designed and consistent effect.

If in your module you change how the sap works, giving it quick Ko options that get around hit points that it did not otherwise have, you change "the way normal things work" for your module and that will cause problems. Its perfectly fine to have a strange new magic feidl do all sorts of wondrous things or a new monster with bizarre new features as these represent "unusual things" but not to change the basic normal everyday things.

So, no more than a quick hit with a longsword is dangerous to a 10th or even 3rd level fighter (it has to work thru a lot of hit points), a few quick hits from a sap wont be either.

Now, some exceptions would be to have the footpads be rogues, so their sneak attack might get the sap damage up to knockout level, but unless you give them a lot of levels (more than the notion of simple footpads, perhaps), that wont happen reliably, in DND. The combat system is specifically designed to not allow "realistic quick drops" of heroes.

After all, whats to stop the 10th level rogue from slipping in with his +2 sap and KOing the giant, the lich, the troll-king or (if he has multiple attacks and is very fast) the hydra!

 

[ajanders]

Ok, since y'all are coming up with such good ideas, here are a couple more.

3) is a powerful spell, probably 7-9th level, which has the effect of causing someone to spin aronud and around in the air (think of Gandalf spinning on the floor after Saruman defeats him in the 1st lord of the rings movie- though that is not the source for the spell). The caster can cause them to spin slowly while you interrogate, or you can cause them to spin in wide loops fom very high (say, 100') to very low. Finally, if the caster is not interrupted and does not choose to release her victim, she can cause them to spin at an exponentially increasing rate until they fly apart and die.

I was wondering the best way to implement this spell from an earlier project. The idea is, anything spun at an exponentially increasing rate like that will eventually die if the spell isn't broken first. It should be roughly the same amount of time whether you have 10 hit points or 100, nor should damage reduction, fast healing, or regeneration matter. I had a theory on one way to handle this, but the publisher though it was too far out, and we ended up making the spell much more conventional.
DB

It is probably a very bad idea to bypass hit points from a mechanical standpoint.
Take a look at the 5th level spell Telekinesis for a start, which moves people about and does damage. I'll think about this and get back tonight with a little more.

4) is a combat issue from the same campaign as the one with the Imp. When I run my game we use pretty extensive house rules for combat, so sometimes things happen which I'm not later certain how to convert into D&D rules.
This is when the players are about 4th level. If they aren't very careful in a particlar area where their guard is probably down, they will get ambushed by some footpads, who use saps to attack from concealment. The footpads seek to capture one or more party members and make off with them in a boat. In our house rules
You know what a sap is of course, this is like a leather sock full of lead shot or even sand, which has been used since time immemorial to quickly knock people out to rob or kidnap them, or just to silence them. The way a sap should work, if you are moderately skilled in the weapon, and can attack someone who isn't wearing a helmet and /or heavy armor from surprise, you should be able to have a good chance of knocking them out. Even if you don't surprise them, a few blows to the head or the back of the neck should be enough to drop most people.
What would be the best way to implement this in 3.5? I didn't want to give the bad guys a bunch of really high level monk Feats, and the subdual damage rules combined with critical hits seem insufficient. The guys weilding the saps are about 3rd level.
DB

Rogues (assuming your footpads are rogues) can use saps to make sneak attacks that do subdual damage. (It's in the sneak attack description).
That's 1d6 + 1d6 to 2d6 subdual per successful attack. Sneak attacks can be set up either using the Bluff skill (with or without the Improved Feint feat) or, if you prefer to do it tactically, simply have two rogues flank the character destined for dreamland.
If you're morally opposed to using rogues, Power Attack with a sap has some really interesting effects...but hitting can be a trick.
That's it for the SRD.
You could also go for an OGL version of the Merciful property from the Forgotten Realms and lay it on their weapons.
See how easy that was?

 

[swrushing]

The plot dosn't hinge on it, I just want the weapons to have a reasonable chance of working, so that it doesn't seem utterly ridiculous that they even tried.

DB

If a great axe swing isn't really risking my life, cannot take me out in one swing barring really exceptional results, why should a sap have a "reasonable chance" of taking me out with the same one swing?

Seriously, a third level fighter jumping me with surprise with his greataxe can do about 1-12 plus his bonus, say +5, for an average of about 12 damage. For my third level fighter, assuming a 14 con, I have 20+ hp and am not worried unless you roll a crit.

The sap doing its little damage is consistent with that.

if you change the sap to allow it to have a reasonable chance of dropping me in one surprise shot, then you encourage the same fighter to, istead of hitting me with his axe, sap me to unconscious quickly and then use his axe to CDG me.

Thats not what you want, any more than you are happy with weak saps.

What you seem to be wanting is a "more realistic combat system" than DND has. I hear riddle of steel has a more realistic combat system.

 

[Vaxalon]

'I've got this great adventure, but I need you to be captured first. OK to go along with that?' - if so, then possibly skip the fight altogether and start with them captured.

This is possibly the best advice you're going to get. DnD is founded on PC's winning 99.9% of the fights they're in. Go against that without warning the players first and you're in for problems.

 

[I'm A Banana]

3) is a powerful spell, probably 7-9th level, which has the effect of causing someone to spin aronud and around in the air (think of Gandalf spinning on the floor after Saruman defeats him in the 1st lord of the rings movie- though that is not the source for the spell). The caster can cause them to spin slowly while you interrogate, or you can cause them to spin in wide loops fom very high (say, 100') to very low. Finally, if the caster is not interrupted and does not choose to release her victim, she can cause them to spin at an exponentially increasing rate until they fly apart and die.

I was wondering the best way to implement this spell from an earlier project. The idea is, anything spun at an exponentially increasing rate like that will eventually die if the spell isn't broken first. It should be roughly the same amount of time whether you have 10 hit points or 100, nor should damage reduction, fast healing, or regeneration matter. I had a theory on one way to handle this, but the publisher though it was too far out, and we ended up making the spell much more conventional.

Sounds like an application of Telekinesis, to me. Maybe make it one level higher for the effect you want, but telekinesis as it is can already spin a guy in endless circles...the only thing you need to alter is the Violent Thrust part of it...maybe something like an "increasing force" which allows you to push faster, or spin in circles. The duration of the maximum concentration is halved (to 1 rd/2 levels) using this, and each round they must make a Fort save or take, say, 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round from the effect of pulling apart your body. Combined with an effect like the Extend Spell feat (making this application or individual spell a 6th level spell), this will kill anyone in enough time. And Con damage can mimic the falling apart of the body very well -- even if you get out of it, your bones are stretched, your muscles snapped, your internal organs stretched and bleeding....you won't be able to stand up to the punishment of damage for long, and your ability to resist further effects like this will be weakened.

4) is a combat issue from the same campaign as the one with the Imp. When I run my game we use pretty extensive house rules for combat, so sometimes things happen which I'm not later certain how to convert into D&D rules.

This is when the players are about 4th level. If they aren't very careful in a particlar area where their guard is probably down, they will get ambushed by some footpads, who use saps to attack from concealment. The footpads seek to capture one or more party members and make off with them in a boat. In our house rules

You know what a sap is of course, this is like a leather sock full of lead shot or even sand, which has been used since time immemorial to quickly knock people out to rob or kidnap them, or just to silence them. The way a sap should work, if you are moderately skilled in the weapon, and can attack someone who isn't wearing a helmet and /or heavy armor from surprise, you should be able to have a good chance of knocking them out. Even if you don't surprise them, a few blows to the head or the back of the neck should be enough to drop most people.

What would be the best way to implement this in 3.5? I didn't want to give the bad guys a bunch of really high level monk Feats, and the subdual damage rules combined with critical hits seem insufficient. The guys weilding the saps are about 3rd level.

The thing with this is that while the sap does work like this on normal people, it doesn't work like this on HEROES! A bit of subdual damage to the back of the face is enough to drop most NPC's....but PC's are a cut above, and should be.

The easiest way to do this is to make the guys with saps rogues. When they attack from concealment, they'll have sneak attack, which lets them deal 3d6 damage on a successful blow. In fact, part of the Rogue class description specifically states this use of the Sap. A few hits like that, and even a fourth level barbarian with a CON of 16 will drop pretty quick (assuming an average hp of 43, or 51 in rage, and average damage/blow of 10, it'll be about 4-5 hits against the guy who's JOB it is to take damage). Just make sure to have a large enough force, to segregate one character from the group, etc. so that they can effectively flank the party.

In addition, regular damage can be used to make PC's more vulnerable to subdual damage, because you need to only have subdual damage equal to your current hp to drop. So if the rogues sneak attack with arrows at first, and continue to follow and pelt their prey with them from range (while running and hiding after each fire), then closing in with saps only when the party is already weakened, it'll only take a single blow to take them out. Heck, have them be warriors charging in with bastard swords for the first round or two, only to break out the saps afterwards.

Traps work well with this, as do net attacks...if a character is suspended in the air by his feet, he can't defend himself against the blows very effectively, leading to more sneak attacks.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The ring sounds like it might work with a slightly tweaked version of Sanctuary - Sanctuary makes you unnoticed in combat situations, the ring makes you unnoticed in social situations, with a Will Save if someone tries to interact with you...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Originally Posted by Elder-Basilisk
Nonlethal damage. This one practically writes itself. Rogues with saps and sneak attack. If you've got a party of 3rd level rogues with saps, a good hide skill, and improved initiative, that's a potential of 6d6 per rogue before the PCs act if the rogues get the drop on them. Give the rogues TWF and that goes up to 9d6. And they can always tumble and flank whoever is left conscious at the end. It depends upon surprise or flanking--then again, most people won't let you hit them on the back of the head with a sap unless you either surprise or flank them anyway.

Are you assuming critical hits? Thats less than a 5% chance. Even without them though this D20 modern rule, combined with sneak attack, would at least put it in the ballpark.

No I'm not assuming critical hits.

3rd level NPC rogue. Str 12, Dex 16. Feats, improved initiative, two weapon fighting, weapon finesse.

In the surprise round, he will attack once at +5 for 1d6+1 plus 2d6 sneak attack.

If he wins initiative in the normal round, he will attack twice at +3 for 1d6+1 and 2d6 sneak attack on the primary hand and +3 for 1d6 and 2d6 sneak attack on the off-hand.

If he hits with all attacks, he will deal 9d6+2 points of non-lethal damage.
Of course, assuming all hits is a bad assumption. Against AC 17 (first level fighter with chain mail and a large shield or a second level fighter with banded mail and a buckler or with half-plate), he'll average about 13 points of non-lethal damage. That will take down most first level PCs and will place second level PCs in real danger of going down. Against PC rogues (lower hp, weaker armor, no uncanny dodge till level 4 but significantly more likely to win initiative in the full round action or notice the hidden rogues), they're likely to knock them out before their action if they gain surprise and win initiative in round one. Against wizards, knocking them out is pretty much a foregone conclusion.

Saps wielded by rogues are plenty deadly enough in D&D. If you want a system that allows saps a percentage or save based chance to knock the PCs out then you probably want a system that allows greatswords a similar chance of simply killing someone. After all, I would expect that being struck by the sharp end of a flamberge is "realistically" at least as likely to kill someone as being struck by a sock full of pennies is "realistically" likely to knock them out.