Best way to steal something from the PCs in combat?

[Noumenon]

My current module has an Imp called Atnoseep, the Scion of Greed so I thought it would be cool if he tried to steal the party's magic items. My idea was that he would fight the party and then as a "bloodied trigger" when he got to half hit points, he would try to steal a Helm of Comprehend Languages off somebody's head or something like that.

He's got invisibility, but I think he'd still face an AoO at the beginning of Disarm. Anyway, he'd get a -16 on the opposed roll.

If he tried Sleight of Hand, he has 6 hit dice, but it's not one of his listed skills so he could only buy 4 ranks, and with +5 dex he'd probably be at a slight disadvantage in the opposed Spot check. You'd think he'd get a circumstantial bonus for starting out invisible, though, right?

Anyway, Sleight seems like the way to go but it seems like characters stealing things off other characters in combat is supposed to be really hard, requiring not just a grapple but a pin and a disarm check with a penalty. So it doesn't seem fair. And a helm is not a "small object" for a Tiny imp anyway.

Any good way to do this mechanically? I like the flavor of it enough that I am going to implement it somehow no matter what the rules say (it won't matter because he is so greedy he will keep coming back till they beat him and get their stuff back).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think the imp actually wouldn't have to worry about AoO's. By being invisible, he has total concealment: "You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies."

As far as sleight of hand ranks..justm ake it a class skill for him if you want! He's the freaking scion of greed!

I don't know if slight of hand or disarm is the better way to handle it mechanically. Probably sleight of hand, though maybe as an opposed roll of some kind instead of against a DC.

Not sure your players will like you doing this little trick, though. I mean, the whole point is to grab some of their loot and run, right? It's pointless to waste the time if he's going to remain there afterward and lose/win. If he wins anyway it didn't matter, if he loses, they just take it back and are more angry. The player you target for this could very easily resent you doing this, it feels kind of cheap and like you're "picking on him."

 

[green slime]

Nice Idea, but I wouldn't.

You probably don't want players trying the same trick against NPCs.

A helmet is not just a hat sitting on the head: It is a snug fitting crash protection device which is also afixed under the chin and attached to the rest of the armour by latches.

 

[Darklone]

Agreed. The only way to get that helm is to stun/paralyze/knock out that dude wearing it and spending a few rounds (somewhere in the PHB under donning armor) to remove that helmet from him.

 

[Noumenon]

I could give the Imp some Disable Device skill to spend a round busting the latch on the helmet; as long as I gave him him the alternate form "Insane Skill Monkey." He should be able to find something else smaller and more liftable because the magic of the temple of Greed (formerly Charity) makes all valuable items glow a bit.

I don't think I want the players trying the same trick, especially against creatures with low Spot checks. OTOH, there's no Improved Sleight of Hand to take away the AoO (provided Invisibility doesn't work; I wasn't sure when it dropped). Stealing the enemy's potions or scrolls would be quite a bit of fun as long as helms and weapons were off limits.

I could make it Sleight of Hand versus BAB + Spot + 1/2 level (like a feint), giving the Imp with max levels a +14 vs +12 for the rogue and +7 for the fighter. It's his 20 Dex that makes that so good.

Not sure your players will like you doing this little trick, though. I mean, the whole point is to grab some of their loot and run, right? It's pointless to waste the time if he's going to remain there afterward and lose/win. If he wins anyway it didn't matter, if he loses, they just take it back and are more angry.

Permanently taking stuff is bad, but what I'm looking for is just something to spice up the combat. Taking the idea from 4th edition that monsters have special abilities that trigger when they're "bloodied," I try to design every encounter so that the monster's tactics change at some point. There's nothing so boring as a monster just standing there and doing the same tactic over and over till it runs out of hit points. If a monster is losing the combat, I want him to try bull rushing you into the fire, or flooding the chamber to escape, or summoning help. In the imp's case, flyby sting attacks are about his only good tactic, so that will get boring halfway through.

Hey! I could use his suggestion ability to say "Let me try on your helmet" -- that would be a fun way to get ahold of it. He won't be able to carry a magic item far from the Shrine of Greed anyway, so the party can hunt him down.

 

[Some_call_me_Tim]

Disarm attempt is the usual method

There is already rules for this.

Grabbing Items
You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack.
If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn’t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above.
You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.

Of course, I would say a helm would fall under the category of "well-secured," but I'm sure there is a whole slew of magic items that the players keep at the ready (potions, scrolls, wands, back-up weapons) that would be ideal targets.
I agree you want to avoid doing this routinely, as it can be VERY annoying, but to spice things up on occasion this should be fine.

 

[Noumenon]

The -16 penalty he'd get on Disarm made me look for other solutions right away.

 

[Some_call_me_Tim]

OK, I failed my spot check on that; but maybe I'm missing how you calculate it. An imp (tiny) vs a human (medium) is only -8 from size then -4 for unarmed although the defender is at a -4 because of you grabbing a non-weapon, which makes up for that, then he should get a +4 if you are trying to steal something that isn't secured. I've always ruled that the defender getting a +4 for two-handed weapons doesn't apply when you aren't trying to grab the weapon. So, I'm not sure where your -16 is coming from.

I get -8 for difference in size
unarmed vs. grabbing non-melee weapon is a wash (although technically both sides roll at -4)
+4 for unsecured.

So, only a -4 total. No AoO because of invisiblity. Totally possible without be a gimme.

Let me know if I'm still missing something, but I think it is always better to use the existing rules than try to invent new ones because players will expect the universe to operate in a certain way and when you change the rules, its like physics changeing from day to day.