Between a rock and a hardplace

[billd91]

If the paladin can't beat the harpies, but the wizard CAN, I tend to believe the paladin can't beat the wizard either.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Harpies aren't that tough to deal with. The paladin should deal with the wizard as is appropriate for the law and justice. He should then recruit the people necessary to take care of the harpies.

I don't see much of a moral dilema. The town can still be defended even if the wizard is gone, it may just take a bit of effort.

 

[comareddin]

This is not a situation I used in one of my games. My friend and I were discussing alignment issues over MSN. He is an FR fan, and I am a new Eberron fan. Just got my books and stuff. Those of you who have read the Eberron campaign setting knows that the alignment issue is handled in a more complex and IMO more realistic way. An Eberron paladin does have many choices in this sort of situation but for an FR paladin it is a really no-win situation.

By the way as the discussion moved on, I changed the details of the situation. The harpies were orcs in the beginning etc. If someone asks I could post some details of these moral dilemmas. BTW, at the end of the encounter this particular encounter of Paladin and the Wizard at the Barn became quite complex with different parties adding different complications.

Com

 

[Plane Sailing]

Moral dilemmas are fine, but they can be phrased without being so specific about the vileness involved. I've made some edits to the original post and quotes of it.

Remember, grandma is reading!

Regards

 

[Henry]

My point was that the OP was trying to establish a No Win Scenario, and I don't believe in them.

Yeah, where's all the outrage about railroading when threads like these come up?

Seriously, as Cabled said, these villagers would likely not be so helpless; if they were, then the wizard must have moved there with them, and they are likely complicit in whatever vile acts he engages in.

What the paladin probably WOULD do, is send word to his order of the precariousness of the village, and get some help (perhaps the party of PCs? ) who would then have THREE PROBLEMS:

1) Lock up/slay the vile wizard.
2) Go take care of the immediate harpy problem.
3) Train the villagers to form a militia to stave off any REAL problems. The best solution is to be self-sufficient, not depending on some icon to lead them - as the example notes, Icons can fall.

After all, the example said getting help was "not easy", but not "impossible."

 

[Kurotowa]

Perhaps. The important thing is which choice do you make, not that you only have two choices. Or rather the important thing is making a personal statement about your morals and beliefs through your character. If you can make an easy third choice, you can't make that personal statement.

If the third choice you talk about includes making some other kind of statment, then that's even better.

I'm mostly in agreement with you here. Just two things. I don't see struggling to find a less obvious third choice to be the easy way out. And while making personal statements is great drama it's not something that can be forced. All the DM can do it set up a situation and it's up to the player to decide to step up or pass by.

 

[comareddin]

Yeah, where's all the outrage about railroading when threads like these come up?

Seriously, as Cabled said, these villagers would likely not be so helpless; if they were, then the wizard must have moved there with them, and they are likely complicit in whatever vile acts he engages in.

What the paladin probably WOULD do, is send word to his order of the precariousness of the village, and get some help (perhaps the party of PCs? ) who would then have THREE PROBLEMS:

1) Lock up/slay the vile wizard.
2) Go take care of the immediate harpy problem.
3) Train the villagers to form a militia to stave off any REAL problems. The best solution is to be self-sufficient, not depending on some icon to lead them - as the example notes, Icons can fall.

After all, the example said getting help was "not easy", but not "impossible."

Well, then let me improve the scenario a little just like I did to my friend.
The kingdom is on the brink of a war with its southern neighbour [insert evil empire] The order of paladins or even a military dispatch is hard to spare. Other than the VILE ACTS, the wizard guy is protecting the villagers from the harpies and helping them out occasionally with spells. The guy is sort of crazy.

There is a reason the harpy problem cannot be solved easily.
1. There is a lot of them
2. There is something really sinister and waaaay high CR in the mountain. This being is sacrificing the harpies for a purpose and the harpies do not seem to mind. The being does not mind losing several harpies a month as well. However after a harpy-wipe this thing is gonna be really pissed off. Will wipe entire villages within days.
What does our paladin do now?

 

[comareddin]

Moral dilemmas are fine, but they can be phrased without being so specific about the vileness involved. I've made some edits to the original post and quotes of it.

Remember, grandma is reading!

Regards

You are absolutely right and I offer my sincerest apologies. I really need to sleep... (about 34 hours now) I even noticed this post just now.

Com

 

[Belen]

Well, then let me improve the scenario a little just like I did to my friend.
The kingdom is on the brink of a war with its southern neighbour [insert evil empire] The order of paladins or even a military dispatch is hard to spare. Other than the VILE ACTS, the wizard guy is protecting the villagers from the harpies and helping them out occasionally with spells. The guy is sort of crazy.

There is a reason the harpy problem cannot be solved easily.
1. There is a lot of them
2. There is something really sinister and waaaay high CR in the mountain. This being is sacrificing the harpies for a purpose and the harpies do not seem to mind. The being does not mind losing several harpies a month as well. However after a harpy-wipe this thing is gonna be really pissed off. Will wipe entire villages within days.
What does our paladin do now?

Find another mage, scroll etc. Have someone place a Geas on the Wizard to stop his vile acts and continue to defend the town. Leave. Find or hire help. Clear out the threat to the village. Arrest Wizard for his crimes.

Or. Send for help and stay with the Wizard every moment of every day to keep him on the straight and narrow...

There are a lot of possibilities. A good Paladin may have to make tough moral choices. A good Paladin acknowledges that he cannot prevent all evil.

 

[Henry]

There is a reason the harpy problem cannot be solved easily.
1. There is a lot of them
2. There is something really sinister and waaaay high CR in the mountain. This being is sacrificing the harpies for a purpose and the harpies do not seem to mind. The being does not mind losing several harpies a month as well. However after a harpy-wipe this thing is gonna be really pissed off. Will wipe entire villages within days.
What does our paladin do now?

In order of preference:

#1) Find another DM, or offer to DM for a while and let this DM recharge his batteries. He's getting quirky on me.

#2) Be sure as the Paladin that I am capable of defending the town myself. I'm assuming I am, if I have the ability to do something about the vile wizard in the first place. I kill the wizard (or disable him if my order has no Right of Justice), and then I take the wizard's place, protecting the town from harpies until the constant entreaties for help produce some.

#3) What if I've already done the paladinly thing (because there were no indicators before of Mr. Sleeping-god-on-the-mountain) and I've pissed off the Thing? then I fight it to the best of my ability, warning the town, appointing people to oversee a mass evacuation (if this town can't defend itself, it's only a few hundred people, right?) while I hold off the Thing best I can. My god will give me a reward in the hereafter for doing the right thing; life means nothing to a paladin.

The one thing a paladin WON'T DO is suffer someone committing vile acts on the populace to live, even if "the greatest good" would be to observe the status quo. A paladin would not onllyu lise his powers for sure, but he would be betraying everything he stands for, including defense of the innocent.

But then, No-Win situations are always like that, aren't they? Better to roll up your sleeves, say "what the hell," and die while doing what's heroic and fun, rather than playing a meta-psycho-game. It's just a character.

 

[comareddin]

Here is another setup I discussed with my friend.

The city is ultimately lawful, so no bending the law. The penalty for murder is execution. We have a kid who played a little late and is returning home. As he is about to enter he sees a stranger leaving his house with a bloodstained sword. They see each other clearly, and as the assassin is about to advance, city guard turns around the corner so instead he runs away. The boy enters his house and finds his mother and father murdered.

5 years later our boy grows to be a healthy and strong young man. However he never comes over the shock of that evening. It is always lurking nearby. One day he sees a man in the city park, holding the hands of his two children, about the age of 6. There can be no mistake, the dark brown eyes, the mole on his cheek, the hooked nose. That is his parents assassin. Filled with rage, he lunges forward and stabs the man multiple times in front of his kids.

We are in a courtroom now. A paladin is to judge the case. Strangely enough, this man is also the young boy's uncle. Now what is the paladin to do? Send his nephew to the gallows for avenging the death of his brother?

Com