Between a rock and a hardplace

[jonesy]

Oh come on. As the paladin I would walk straight up to the wizard, tell him that I knew what kind of a person he was, then ask for his help against the harpies and any other threat behind the harpies, and then tell him straight that I would take him before the law after the fact and give him a chance to redeem himself. I might even tell him that I would speak on his behalf to the local law if he were to convince me that he was going to start acting like a decent person. In other words, I'd give the wizard a decision on whether he would like to continue to act badly and risk losing the nice little situation he had built himself there. His decision would then affect the road I would take.

Edit:

Filled with rage, he lunges forward and stabs the man multiple times in front of his kids.

Murder in cold blood. While I myself am opposed to capital punishment, the paladin might not having been grown in that environment. He should therefore respect the law.

Although I wonder about whether and how the court would take into consideration the reason the boy did it, and his young age.

 

[Tarangil]

That's a sweet idea. Nice conundrum to pit the PC's against.

As for the Greater good, I'm sure the Paladin can use a bit of trickery though. If the Paladin were to do some research to find a magic item, like a helm of opposite alignment go on a quest for it, and then set things up where someone can *plunk* it on the Wizards head. That way he can have his cake and eat it too.

Does the paladin know any bards?

 

[billd91]

Here is another setup I discussed with my friend.

The city is ultimately lawful, so no bending the law. The penalty for murder is execution. We have a kid who played a little late and is returning home. As he is about to enter he sees a stranger leaving his house with a bloodstained sword. They see each other clearly, and as the assassin is about to advance, city guard turns around the corner so instead he runs away. The boy enters his house and finds his mother and father murdered.

5 years later our boy grows to be a healthy and strong young man. However he never comes over the shock of that evening. It is always lurking nearby. One day he sees a man in the city park, holding the hands of his two children, about the age of 6. There can be no mistake, the dark brown eyes, the mole on his cheek, the hooked nose. That is his parents assassin. Filled with rage, he lunges forward and stabs the man multiple times in front of his kids.

We are in a courtroom now. A paladin is to judge the case. Strangely enough, this man is also the young boy's uncle. Now what is the paladin to do? Send his nephew to the gallows for avenging the death of his brother?

Com

Partly this depends on what is actually considered murder. Just because a town is strict in its application of the law, that doesn't mean that every killing is murder. If there are, for example, legal vendettas, then the avenging kid may be in the right and the paladin doesn't have to do anything about it.
If it is murder by the local code, then the paladin is bound to send his nephew to the gallows. What the nephew did, killing a secret assassin in front of his own kids, is not kosher by the law, no matter why he did it. If the paladin is under oath to uphold the law, which presumably he would be if he's got official judicial capacities, then he's bound to it.
Hopefully, there are provisions for clemency that he can use to commute the death sentence under extenuating circumstances.

 

[billd91]

There is a reason the harpy problem cannot be solved easily.
1. There is a lot of them
2. There is something really sinister and waaaay high CR in the mountain. This being is sacrificing the harpies for a purpose and the harpies do not seem to mind. The being does not mind losing several harpies a month as well. However after a harpy-wipe this thing is gonna be really pissed off. Will wipe entire villages within days.
What does our paladin do now?

Does the paladin know about the tougher thing high up in the mountain? If not, he can't be held responsible for it.
If he does, then, knowing the other parts of the situation, that big nasty thing should be his first priority. That simplifies everything. Press the wizard into it and taking out the harpies as atonement for his crimes. Give him a chance to truly repent, keep an eye on him, and then if he slips again, take him down.

 

[Kurotowa]

I don't see how these apply to paladins more than any other good and honorable character. Just because paladins get a significant penalty of they choose "wrongly" in the eyes of the DM shouldn't make them a special target for moral dilemmas. Ideally ALL the PC's will be getting moral dilemmas where they have the opportunity to make character defining choices. And ideally no PC will be punished for making the "wrong" choice, even if they are a paladin.

As for the new scenario, first off the paladin excuses himself from the bench as soon as his nephew comes before it. No matter what ruling he makes it will be tainted. Second, assuming we ditch the silly relation twist, you go by local laws. Are vengence killings legal? Then the guy walks. Is murder always murder? Then it was a murder and the guy hangs. It really isn't that complex. And thirdly, what is a paladin, a questing knight who is supposed to fight for good as much as law, doing as a bench judge? This is what I mean about highly contrived situations.

 

[comareddin]

But then, No-Win situations are always like that, aren't they? Better to roll up your sleeves, say "what the hell," and die while doing what's heroic and fun, rather than playing a meta-psycho-game. It's just a character.

I agree completely with this. I just asked this question about a hypothetical situation to see what kind of answers people would give.

Well let me ask another one
Again a village, and there is a wizard tower in the middle. The mighty mage residing there is the guardian of the village. He fends off attacks, helps the villagers irrigate the land, summon creatures for help and use magic to help them with all sorts of thing. Then one day a spell goes really wrong and he accidentally summons, or even gates a mighty demon, doesn't really matter. Our paladin hero who is probably on the verge of suicide now due to all these dilemmas slays this demon, but he arrives quite late. The demon killed all the villagers. What do we do with the wizard now? He did not intend any evil, he even intended only good, but an entire village is destroyed.

 

[comareddin]

I don't see how these apply to paladins more than any other good and honorable character. Just because paladins get a significant penalty of they choose "wrongly" in the eyes of the DM shouldn't make them a special target for moral dilemmas. Ideally ALL the PC's will be getting moral dilemmas where they have the opportunity to make character defining choices. And ideally no PC will be punished for making the "wrong" choice, even if they are a paladin.

You are right here. I think people always choose the paladin because he is the paragon lawful good.

Com

 

[smilinggm]

How is this for a solution:

After a long night of prayer and fasting the palidin has a vision of a Magical Helm that was burried in a nearby carn. This helm was placed on the head of an evil lord and he imediatly became a good and just lord. (Ie the helm is a Helm of Oppisit Alignment). Make the journey and the dive into the carn a challenging side treck. Then the palidin in question will have to find a way to place the helm on the evil wizard's head w/o killing him in the fight. Problem solved.

 

[The_Gneech]

Here is the situation...

[snip]

If he kills the wizard, the villagers are helpless against the harpies.
If he enslaves the wizard to judge him or something, it gives the harpies enough time to attack.

The paladin cannot defend the village from the harpies and there is no easy way to ask for help.

If the paladin isn't tough enough to fight the harpies, how the [EXPLETIVE DELETED] is he supposed to kill the wizard that fends them off now?

-The Gneech

 

[Henry]

As for the Wizard accidentally summoning the demon that razes the town? That one's easy. The Wizard still has to stand trial for negligence by the laws of the land. If the paladin's order has any Rights of Justice, then If I were the paladin, the punishment would be something more along the lines of community service. Perhaps ten years of casting spells for the good of the town (and observation to make sure he didn't start dabbling in dark arts again ).