Beyond Favorite vs. Best - the Cream of the Crop (TV/Film Discussion)

[Deset Gled]

Im...pretty much the opposite. I live for the long form drama. Though, I could see splitting the difference with the limited series.

To be fair, I may be channeling some nostalgia backlash related to the news of the MTV shutdown. Just having MTV (or VH1) on as part of life was common to me for many years, and it's essentially the exact opposite of long form drama. Now I don't even have it on my list, as there really isn't a single "show" to name the experience.

 

[TiQuinn]

Cream of the Crop TV:

Breaking Bad - This is the top spot for me. The full realization of a TV series that had specific arc for its characters played out over the course of its entire run, with several dramatic twists that all make sense, never frivolous, that also sticks the landing with a perfect 10. I still think it’s what every dramatic series aspires to be.

Deadwood - Shakespearean in language and tone if Shakespeare also knew the F word. So rewatchable. So quotable.

Justified - or what I like to call The Ballad of Raylan Givens and Boyd Crowder. Two amazing charismatic lead actors giving life to Elmore Leonard in a way I don’t think any other show matched (one movie has though - see movies below).

Community - Probably the most I’ve laughed at a TV show ever and that includes some great shows like Frasier, Seinfeld, The Office, Friends, Cheers, you name it. Any show that has a whole episode devoted to school wide paintball, and The Floor is Lava is getting a special place in my heart.

Midnight Mass - I’m putting this under TV even though it’s technically a mini series for streaming but oh well. The best series on Netflix for awhile was Haunting of Hill House, which scared the bejeezus outta me. Then Mike Flanagan sprung Midnight Mass on us. Scary, thought provoking, enraging at times, gorgeous in others - it’s the best thing Flanagan has ever done.

Cream of the Crop Movies:

Casablanca - Okay, it’s the on or near the top of every best movie of all time list for a reason. Impeccable cast, amazing and oh so quotable banter - it’s a classic for a reason. It’s also one of the most imitated movies of all time whose influence is seen in Star Wars (Rick’s Cafe American IS the Mos Eisley Cantina). Han Solo and Indiana Jones may not be 100% based on Rick Blaine but if they are in any way a trope, Rick Blaine was one of the bases of that trope.

Jaws - I mean, cmon. Spielberg, how the hell did you ever make this movie at the age of 29. Like, WTF, man. Show off.

Mad Max: Fury Road - Steven Soderbergh said “How the hell are they not still out there in the middle of the desert making this movie? I don’t know how Miller made that movie.” Probably the greatest action movie of the century so far.

Out of Sight - The aforementioned Elmore Leonard movie entry. Probably the sexiest movie I’ve ever seen in my life. A cast of colorful characters just being the coolest cats in the room. One of the best movies of the 90s.

Inception: Christopher Nolan needs a nod here and it came down to this and the Dark Knight. But, an original heist movie combined with sci-fi elements? It takes the cake.

 

[payn]

Casablanca - Okay, it’s the on or near the top of every best movie of all time list for a reason. Impeccable cast, amazing and oh so quotable banter - it’s a classic for a reason. It’s also one of the most imitated movies of all time whose influence is seen in Star Wars (Rick’s Cafe American IS the Mos Eisley Cantina). Han Solo and Indiana Jones may not be 100% based on Rick Blaine but if they are in any way a trope, Rick Blaine was one of the bases of that trope.

Been thinking about movies as I have not posted on them yet. I cant disagree with Casablanca its a stone cold classic.

 

[TiQuinn]

Been thinking about movies as I have not posted on them yet. I cant disagree with Casablanca its a stone cold classic.

Yeah, it’s easily my favorite movie of all time.

 

[TiQuinn]

Just thought of a runner-up for Cream of the Crop TV:

The Pitt - It’s only been one season so far, with the second just days away (SO excited!) but on the strength of that first season, it deserves consideration. One of the best shows I’ve seen in years.

 

[sevenbastard]

TV: Cheers, Game of Thrones, True Detective Season 1, (early) Simpsons, Bluey

Movies: Fury Road, Red Dawn, Road Warrior, Boogie Nights, Shawshank, Dark Knight,

Books: Naked and the Dead, The Beach, The Sun also Rises, The Road, As I Lay Dying.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I feel like the emphasis on long form drama is a mistake for the idea of "cream of the crop" television.

I actually strongly agree.

I won't derail the thread with a detailed discussion but it's not just nostalgia or something, but I do think TV has kind of gone down a dead end by only applying big budgets and serious writing to long-form shows, and it's part of why YouTube and so on have been so successful, and why a lot of people, even much younger people, are watching/re-watching TV shows which ended their runs 10+ years ago (and also why anime has become increasingly popular, which tells often engaging stories in 20-minute chunks, though it is experiencing issues of its own), because they're providing something modern TV increasingly rarely does. That's not to say long-form stuff doesn't succeed, but its prevalence is I think disproportionate to its actual value and worth. If there was a DS9 or Buffy today that wasn't just a revival, it'd almost certainly be animated and underbudgeted and allowed to run for like, at most 2 seasons. Hell, a Supernatural today would get the same treatment and that ran for 15 years!

let's contrast some films. In one corner, we films of high regard for their cinematic quality like There Will Be Blood and No Country For Old Men.

I enjoy re-watching every few years because they scratch a certain itch (in this case, mega-disaster), but I don't see as being all that well made, 2012 or Deep Impact (not quite "comfort" films, but certainly entertaining).

I find this an interesting juxtaposition, because personally, whilst No Country for Old Men is basically un-re-watchable due to Javier Bardem's insanely chilling performance, I found There Will Be Blood to be almost jolly in its sheer insanity (maybe I just can't take that entire era of human history very seriously) and have watched it a few times, and I find Deep Impact to be 100% impossible to rewatch because it's so horrific and worse, has a sort of despicable (to me personally) saccharine tone and precious-ness which just seems inappropriate with a lot of the stuff it brings up. It's a much better movie than Armageddon but if forced to re-watch one I'd pick Armageddon every time.

Anyway lists - very partial and bear in mind I haven't had my coffee yet, let alone my ritalin!

TV:
Buffy S1-5, S7, Angel
Deep Space Nine
Law & Order S1-12-ish (not exploitative and laughably preachy SVU or the rest, or later, "modern copaganda"-tainted L&O - early L&O is often copaganda, but it's copaganda from a different, better, era) - would/will likely replace with HLotS if that ever becomes viewable again (I know they're working on it).
For All Mankind
Slow Horses
Drag Race (if Taskmaster gets in, and I agree it does, this does! Both are clearly a cut above most "reality" shows, and oddly, share certain similarities)
Line of Duty

Movies:
Master and Commander - Not sure how this hasn't already been mentioned, it is absolute archetype of what @Mercurius is describing, both extremely watchable and engaging and extremely high quality - very re-watchable too for some reason!
Aliens
Conan The Barbarian (1981) - Honestly an incredible movie and the soundtrack alone makes it easy to rewatch
The Last Unicorn
Die Hard
Hard Boiled (1993)
LA Confidential (I love the book but I actually think the movie kind of does a better job presenting a lot of the concepts to a general audience)

God this is looking very '80s/'90s, how old of me, I know there's a lot of more recent stuff I should add, will try and remember to do so later.

Honorable Mentions: Grave of the Fireflies, 2001 A Space Odyssey, My Cousin Vinny, Citizen Cane, Spirited Away, Witness For The Prosecution, Hereditary, Shawshank Redemption

(I wish I could put Kimmy on this list, if it was the Pinot Noir show I probably could...)

 

[payn]

I actually strongly agree.

I won't derail the thread with a detailed discussion but it's not just nostalgia or something, but I do think TV has kind of gone down a dead end by only applying big budgets and serious writing to long-form shows, and it's part of why YouTube and so on have been so successful, and why a lot of people, even much younger people, are watching/re-watching TV shows which ended their runs 10+ years ago (and also why anime has become increasingly popular, which tells often engaging stories in 20-minute chunks, though it is experiencing issues of its own), because they're providing something modern TV increasingly rarely does. That's not to say long-form stuff doesn't succeed, but its prevalence is I think disproportionate to its actual value and worth. If there was a DS9 or Buffy today that wasn't just a revival, it'd almost certainly be animated and underbudgeted and allowed to run for like, at most 2 seasons. Hell, a Supernatural today would get the same treatment and that ran for 15 years!

I'd like to hear the reasons beyond "I like that format" though. Folks love to talk about the good old days of 24 episode season TV. They put out a few examples of long running series like DS9, B5, Buffy, West Wing. What they dont mention is that 9/10 other shows are pretty much unwatchable. Single sets, small main cast, same topics different week. Even the beloved B5 is so full of filler to make that 24 episode quota its a stretch to say its a good show. There are some great examples of writers doing it well and consistently, but there are far more examples of it going badly and rightly forgotten.

I think the last foray into 24 episode television was Person of Interest. I bounced off this the first attempt because of its episodic nature. It has an intriguing theme, but nothing interesting happens with it. I was told by numerous EN World folk to power through the first season because its worth it. I powered through to the end of season 2, and it certainly was not. There was the semblance of something interesting, but so much wheel spinning filler just made it a chore to keep watching. I could distill it down to a few episodes a season and say thats all that is really needed. Again, I firmly believe that executing this old episodic serial hybrid style was an art that few producers are capable of.

Speaking of which, Nolan was involved in Person of Interest! The same Nolan that brought us West World and Fallout. Big budget shows that likely will have fewer episodes and seasons. I find it hard to argue they are not leagues better than POI.

I dont feel like this is a derail and is actually quite on topic of discussing Cream of Crop TV/film. Though, if folks think it is, please tell me to shut up. I just happen to enjoy diving into the details and know ill get a good conversation out of it from @Ruin Explorer.

LA Confidential (I love the book but I actually think the movie kind of does a better job presenting a lot of the concepts to a general audience

LA Confidential is a classic contemporary noir film. A good example of star studded cast that actually meets great writing and produces a cream of the crop film. Great choice!

 

[Mercurius]

At this point it is stating the obvious, but The Sopranos killed long-form TV (i.e. the 24 episodes per season format). Or at least the momentum built by the The Sopranos eventually made long-form TV more and more secondary, even peripheral. It upped the bar on what a "good tv show" looks like, and made stuff before it seem sloppy and amateurish. It also eventually expanded opportunities for actors; tv was no longer where you went if you couldn't make it in the movies.

This is not to say that long-form TV doesn't still exist - there are still network shows with that format. But the generally trend has gone more towards 8-12 per season, and through the various streaming platforms.

I've recently done a re-watch of The X-Files (well, the first 60% or so...I took a pause), which was my favorite show back in the 90s. While I still love it, both for the Scully/Mulder chemistry and the fun conspiracy meta-arc and monsters of the week, but it really is uneven. The connective tissue is, first and foremost, Scully and Mulder, then secondarily the meta-arc. But 20 hours of TV is a lot of time to fill, so some of the episodes feel like just that...filler. Or take TNG...they vary widely in terms of quality and interest, especially early on.

In a way, long-form TV is sort of like writing a first draft and publishing it as is, while a 10-episode series is, as a general rule, more thorough edited, with extraneous parts removed. While filler episodes still exist, they're a lot more rare.

But I don't think the rise of 10 and the reduction of 24 is entirely due to The Sopranos setting the new bar. I think some of it is due to the ascent of streaming as the primary way that people watch stuff today. Back in the day, if you missed an episode you were lit out of shuck...you'd either have to hope for a re-run or for the VHS/DVD release. Meaning, you had to be able to miss an episode, and most shows facilitated that.

Now imagine watching a 10-episode season of a modern show and missing, say, episode 4. You might be in trouble. But thankfully you can watch it whenever you want.

Furthermore, couple that with the phenomena of "binge-watching." You couldn't really binge-watch The X-Files back in the 90s until six months (or whatever) after the season ended and the VHS/DVD set was released, and even many fans didn't buy those. Each episode had a window of opportunity and it wasn't easy to watch what you missed. Also, binge-watching 24 episodes can be a slog, while 10 episodes works quite well over a weekend.

I think also shows are now more clearly differentiated between anthologies (e.g. Black Mirror) and more novelistic treatments (e.g. Game of Thrones). One episode of Black Mirror has nothing to do with another except thematically, while episodes of GoT are essentially chapters in a novel.

All of which to say is that modern series tend to be more tightly constructed, more cohesive. The Pitt is a rather striking example of this, given that the entire season takes place over the course of a single hospital shift, taking one from 24 (which, ironically, was still back in the era of 24 episodes as the norm...I remember watching the first season and thinking, "That was pretty good but I don't really need to do that again". It might work better in the 10-hour format, in other words).

 

[Micah Sweet]

At this point it is stating the obvious, but The Sopranos killed long-form TV (i.e. the 24 episodes per season format). Or at least the momentum built by the The Sopranos eventually made long-form TV more and more secondary, even peripheral. It upped the bar on what a "good tv show" looks like, and made stuff before it seem sloppy and amateurish. It also eventually expanded opportunities for actors; tv was no longer where you went if you couldn't make it in the movies.

This is not to say that long-form TV doesn't still exist - there are still network shows with that format. But the generally trend has gone more towards 8-12 per season, and through the various streaming platforms.

I've recently done a re-watch of The X-Files (well, the first 60% or so...I took a pause), which was my favorite show back in the 90s. While I still love it, both for the Scully/Mulder chemistry and the fun conspiracy meta-arc and monsters of the week, but it really is uneven. The connective tissue is, first and foremost, Scully and Mulder, then secondarily the meta-arc. But 20 hours of TV is a lot of time to fill, so some of the episodes feel like just that...filler. Or take TNG...they vary widely in terms of quality and interest, especially early on.

In a way, long-form TV is sort of like writing a first draft and publishing it as is, while a 10-episode series is, as a general rule, more thorough edited, with extraneous parts removed. While filler episodes still exist, they're a lot more rare.

But I don't think the rise of 10 and the reduction of 24 is entirely due to The Sopranos setting the new bar. I think some of it is due to the ascent of streaming as the primary way that people watch stuff today. Back in the day, if you missed an episode you were lit out of shuck...you'd either have to hope for a re-run or for the VHS/DVD release. Meaning, you had to be able to miss an episode, and most shows facilitated that.

Now imagine watching a 10-episode season of a modern show and missing, say, episode 4. You might be in trouble. But thankfully you can watch it whenever you want.

Furthermore, couple that with the phenomena of "binge-watching." You couldn't really binge-watch The X-Files back in the 90s until six months (or whatever) after the season ended and the VHS/DVD set was released, and even many fans didn't buy those. Each episode had a window of opportunity and it wasn't easy to watch what you missed. Also, binge-watching 24 episodes can be a slog, while 10 episodes works quite well over a weekend.

I think also shows are now more clearly differentiated between anthologies (e.g. Black Mirror) and more novelistic treatments (e.g. Game of Thrones). One episode of Black Mirror has nothing to do with another except thematically, while episodes of GoT are essentially chapters in a novel.

All of which to say is that modern series tend to be more tightly constructed, more cohesive. The Pitt is a rather striking example of this, given that the entire season takes place over the course of a single hospital shift, taking one from 24 (which, ironically, was still back in the era of 24 episodes as the norm...I remember watching the first season and thinking, "That was pretty good but I don't really need to do that again". It might work better in the 10-hour format, in other words).

I feel that sometimes filler is a good thing. It allows for worldbuilding and character development, particularly of supporting characters, so that the entire series isn't 100% about serving a single plot.

In short, there are many times I want my TV to be more of a sandbox, but lately all anyone seems to want to make are adventure paths.