BIG! nasties

[Mortaneus]

Even if there are two? Don't forget, this sucker can summon another hecatoncheres that's just as nasty as it.

Still not very impressive. The thing wields weapons (rocks and swords). Therefore, it's innate damage reduction doesn't help it penetrate other's damage reduction. Like stoneskin. Like epic stoneskin spinoffs. Like Protection from Missles. Armors of invulnerability. It's fairly easy to get to the point where it can't hurt you.

Secondly, it has a pretty high spell res, but for a decent mage of 57th level, he'll be laughing at it with a combination of Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Spell Power. Combine with automatic quicken spells of level 1-9, energy substitution, haste, and additional quickens each round, that's a lot of spells pounding away each round, for pretty impressive damage that will likely blow right past it's SR.

Throw in a huge level archer, a knight with ride-by attack, and spirited charge on his warhorse, after giving it a potion of haste and expeditious retreat.

Toss in a 10 Pal/47 Dwarven Defender who's tossed all of his feats in Damage Reduction, and you have a character that even 10 Hecatoncheres are afraid of, because they can't hurt him.

 

[kreynolds]

Toss in a 10 Pal/47 Dwarven Defender who's tossed all of his feats in Damage Reduction, and you have a character that even 10 Hecatoncheres are afraid of, because they can't hurt him.

The likely-hood that such a character, that specialized, having burned all of his feats in Damage Reduction, surving to that level, is nill. All it takes is a couple spellcasters, or a couple monster's with decent spell-like abilities, and he's toast. DR is great against weapons, but it's worthless against spells.

 

[Celebrim]

Err..in theory, shouldn't all CR 50 creatures be equally nasty? I mean, if the CR system means anything (and I'm not sure it does, but if it does) shouldn't the only difference in nastiness between two CR 50 creatures is how well the party is set up to handle the particular nastiness of that creature? A CR 50 that is all in DR, hit points, and massive damage is going to be pretty darn tough to a fighter specializing in slugging it out up close, but might be a peice of cake to a spell caster that can range it (or charm it, or whatever).

As for the 'my monster is nastier than your monster' subtext of the question, I suspect that 3 ed. has finally left that point mute. Anyone can triple the HD of something, add two or three templates, and 20 levels of class abilities to something and make it an extremely rough monster.

But it would be eaten by my triple advanced colossal half-red dragon 12-headed multiheaded multiheaded multiheaded multiheaded paragon fiendish lenearan pryo-hydro clr20.

 

[kreynolds]

But it would be eaten by my triple advanced colossal half-red dragon 12-headed multiheaded multiheaded multiheaded multiheaded paragon fiendish lenearan pryo-hydro clr20.

Hey! I play one of those critters!

 

[Shalewind]

The CR system is by no means concrete. Hell, I wouldn't even call it stable. Part of the problem is that no one has a ABSOLUTE estimate on how to calculate CRs. In fact WOTC recommends playtesting as the best way to determine CRs. Playtesting... This leads to another problem. Since not all parties of X level are created equally. If a hard core power group of level 5 characters can mop the floor with a CR 8 creature, it doesn't mean ANY group of level 5 guys can treat it as the same challenge.

Yes, I am aware of the forumla used here to calculate CRs. While it will give a good estimate approximate to what WOTC presents in the core books, even those numbers are subject to problems.

In sum. The CR rating cannot be used as anything more than a rough estimate IMHO. I'd give or take 3 points of CR below character level 10 and anywhere from 5 to 10 points there after.

Then again, I know DMs that have had no problem with CRs at all. I guess it all resides in the players abuse, er... selection of their abilites.

 

[Mortaneus]

The likely-hood that such a character, that specialized, having burned all of his feats in Damage Reduction, surving to that level, is nill. All it takes is a couple spellcasters, or a couple monster's with decent spell-like abilities, and he's toast. DR is great against weapons, but it's worthless against spells.

Hmmm.....what about if you made it a barbarian instead of dwarven defender? Here's a rules questions: Since the barbarian's damage reduction applies to ALL forms of damage, not just physical (see the glossary def of DR in the back of the PHB), would the DR from the feat, since it stacks, have the same property?

 

[Caliban]

Hmmm.....what about if you made it a barbarian instead of dwarven defender? Here's a rules questions: Since the barbarian's damage reduction applies to ALL forms of damage, not just physical (see the glossary def of DR in the back of the PHB), would the DR from the feat, since it stacks, have the same property?

Barbarian Damage reduction only applies to physical damage, just like any other damage reduction.

If it applied to energy, it wouldn't be damage reduction, it would energy resistance.

If it applied to both energy and physical damage, it would be Hardness.

Check the entry in the DMG on Damage Reduction (which is more recent) for full information on how damage reduction works, including Barbarian Damage Reduction. (The entry on page 73-74 of the DMG specifically mentions Barbaran DR in the 2nd bullet point.)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

But it would be eaten by my triple advanced colossal half-red dragon 12-headed multiheaded multiheaded multiheaded multiheaded paragon fiendish lenearan pryo-hydro clr20.

Switch half red dragon with half black dragon. Now it's immune to acid and fire. Only acid and fire do actual damage to you. Congrats... you're immortal.

Well, almost. A super-meta'd Epic Disintegration Wave would still probably kill you.

About the CR system, it isn't perfect. For instance, the colossal scorpion should have a CR of about 15-16, not 11. However, a CR x creature should challenge an x-level party, so that the party expends 20% of resources (hp, healing potions, spells, etc.), and a properly balanced monster will do so.

Higher CR monsters are difficult to judge. A balor is really tough if you didn't bring the right spells. A dragon is really tough, if being attacked by a monk, and by a fighter who doesn't have Spring Attack. A "brute" monster with multiple attacks (eg 100 swords) could be hurt by Slow, or by Spring Attack and high movement rates. Or by casting a Hold Monster. Or by casting Fly, and shooting it with arrows. One such example is the tarrasque. It isn't that dangerous if you use good tactics (and the mage must know the Fly spell). The problem is killing the tarrasque.

Also: the CR system isn't balanced for adding class levels. A tarrasque sorcerer 1 isn't all that dangerous compared to the typical tarrasque, whereas a dryad that takes druid levels is more dangerous.

 

[Mortaneus]

Really want to scare some uppity adventurers? Throw them up against a Paragon Blue (psiHB) Savant20/Monk12. It's approx CR50. They'll never look at goblins the same way again.

 

[Al]

Wizard49/Cleric1 (with Luck domain), with Improved Metamagic and 18 levels of Improved Spellcasting Capacity. Make him first spell an 18xEmpowered Time Stop, and proceed from there...slap on fatespinner and Luck domain, hope to roll that 4 (use a Quickened Wish for another reroll if worst comes to worst), and have 50 rounds' worth of whatever you want to hit them with.