Binders vs Mummy Rot

[Hooly]

I don't think its a matter of "leave the poor Binder alone". I like to have consistancy across the board with rules hence my question.

I will though point out the issue with Binders as I see it and probably the reason I will never allow a Binder in a game again.

Binders are all classes.

In some cases, binders are weaker than their "real class" counterparts, but mostly, I am finding that the class is TOO versatile and overshadows the other player classes. And the Expel Vestige as a feat just makes it worse. Is there a Cleric or Mage Feat that allows a character to re-learn all of their spells in 2 rounds? I think not.

So my ruling, just to close the argument, is this:

1) Naberius, The Grinning Hound - Ability to replace lost ability points

Yes, this will work to bring the lost ability points back, but will do nothing to remove the curse/disease.

2) Buer, Grandmother Huntress - Ability to be immune to disease

This will not work against Mummy Rot. The main reasoning for this has more to do with the Vestige more than anything else. In the description it says:

"Buer grants you healing powers, the ability to ignore toxins and ailments, and skills that help you navigate the natural world"

It also goes on to say that the ability of Buer's Purity that the binder is immune to diseases and poisons. This seems to be again directed at "the natural world" not against supernatural diseases. As a result, it would act as the clerical spell Remove Curse would, in that the Binder would be required to make a Caster Level Check. Even though this maybe a constant thing, the Binder will only make the check once per day. This would also apply to those around the Binder with the Delay Disease and Poison section of the ability.

 

[Nifft]

Is there a Cleric or Mage Feat that allows a character to re-learn all of their spells in 2 rounds? I think not.

You're going to hate Scribe Scroll, then.

Also, Wizards in specific don't need a feat -- a Wizard can fill in spell-slots that he's left empty with 15 minutes of study.

Seriously, the Binder is weak. If you think it's too strong, I hope you never see an optimized Cleric or Druid.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Drowbane]

CoDzilla! CoDzilla!

You're going to hate Scribe Scroll, then.

Also, Wizards in specific don't need a feat -- a Wizard can fill in spell-slots that he's left empty with 15 minutes of study.

Seriously, the Binder is weak. If you think it's too strong, I hope you never see an optimized Cleric or Druid.

Cheers, -- N

QFT

 

[frankthedm]

You're going to hate Scribe Scroll, then.

Scribe scroll takes committed downtime and GP expenditure with diminishing returns.

Also, Wizards in specific don't need a feat -- a Wizard can fill in spell-slots that he's left empty with 15 minutes of study.

Left blank is the operative term. A binder expels the vestige he had been using up until that point. The wizard spends at least 15 minutes, a lot of time in a hostile environment, to fill up slots he had to do without up until that point.

Plus, I am not sure about the OP, but I think the repercussions for violating the pact and expelling a visage ahead of time are WAY too kid gloved. Whether weak or strong, i find the flavor of the binder being able to hit the eject button unpalatable.

Seriously, the Binder is weak. If you think it's too strong, I hope you never see an optimized Cleric or Druid.

The binder's strength is not the issue. The binder being able to pick and chose class abilities and immunities on a daily basis is.

 

[Neil Bishop]

(snip) Seriously, the Binder is weak. If you think it's too strong, I hope you never see an optimized Cleric or Druid.

I think the binder is so weak that perhaps an optimised bard is more useful! OK, that might be an exaggeration... but not by much.

@OP: You seem to be upset that this binder hasn't been caught by mummy rot and that's about it. There is a general consensus amongst the replies that the binder is profoundly weak. Why not take a punt on our "collective wisdom" and just see how it plays out? Then, please report back and let us all know how it all panned out.

 

[Stalker0]

The binder's strength is not the issue. The binder being able to pick and chose class abilities and immunities on a daily basis is.

Except that the ability for a binder to choose class abilities and immunities on a daily basis IS ITS STRENGTH!!

Here's the thing, some of the vestige immunities are great...if you happen to have just the right vestige at just the right time. Its the equivalent of the wizard going, "damn, this locked door would be so easy to get by if I had just prepared the knock spell"

However as we all know, adventuring is often a chaotic mix of encounters. You might be fighting mind flayers one minute and dire rats the next. And if the binder hasn't chosen vestiges to match the encounter, then he's only got a grab bag of things he can do.

In dnd in general, specialists win out, because a party of specialists can provide general competency. But a binder can't sneak attack like a rogue can, can't cast like a wizard, can't heal like a cleric, can't fight like a fighter. It can help plug those niches when needed, but it never replaces them.



Alright, that's my rant. Let's get back to the OP's issue, and the rules text.

Buer's ability makes you immune to disease. Mummy rot is a magical disease, but is still a disease. You are immune to it.

Flavor text shouldn't factor in to this. The mechanics are "immunity to poison and disease".

If you want to go with the flavor text, consider this. The vestige Otiax says that binding with him allows you "to walk among the clouds", yet there are no vestige powers that grant you air walk or anything close to that (on a side note, I think there should be, that vestige is damn weak for a 5th level one!).

When in doubt, go with the rules and not the flavor text.

 

[Stalker0]

And the Expel Vestige as a feat just makes it worse. Is there a Cleric or Mage Feat that allows a character to re-learn all of their spells in 2 rounds?

In case you weren't exaggerating, expel vestige requires the full vestige summoning ritual again. Which means if you don't already have the symbol drawn, takes 2 MINUTES not rounds.

That's very important, because it means you can't switch vestiges in combat, and means you likely can't switch right before combat.

 

[Hooly]

Buer's ability makes you immune to disease. Mummy rot is a magical disease, but is still a disease. You are immune to it.

Flavor text shouldn't factor in to this. The mechanics are "immunity to poison and disease".

I see your point. However the DMG and MM note the difference between Normal Disease and "Supernatural" disease, hence my dilema. As a side point, I only referred to the flavour text to explain the "spirit" of the rules, not the actual direct translation.

Now about the # of rounds issue, you are incorrect. The rules state that a binding which is rushed takes affect in 1 round. And what is the deficit of failing such a check? Nothing. The Vestige takes "control" and its a "role" playing deficit - and nothing more. BTW, the player does a good job of this for the most part, but is still more POWER GAMER than anything else. Anyway, I digress. So now unless the Vestige description says something like "Is evil and will turn on the party", it seems like there is no downside to a failure.

So a Standard Action to Expel the vestige (round 1) and a standard action to do a rush binding (round 2) is correct.

As for a final ruling, well after my "first" ruling you have given me something to think about, but I would be happy to receive further discussion about the issue.

 

[Stalker0]

There are some vestiges that have combat penalties when you fail as well, like you can not attack an enemy until your ally does, or you stop fighting after 1 minute.

Further, you still have to scribe the seal for expelling which takes 1 minute.

Edit: Actually I just looked at expel vestige again. You have to make a successful binding check to expel the vestige. So if you take that -10 and fail, you just flushed your once per day ability down the toilet.

 

[Hooly]

There are some vestiges that have combat penalties when you fail as well, like you can not attack an enemy until your ally does, or you stop fighting after 1 minute.

Easy answer to that...just don't take that vestige...there are quite a few to choose from.

Further, you still have to scribe the seal for expelling which takes 1 minute.

Where is that exactly? Just for referrence. But one minute to swap out abilitites...wow!

Edit: Actually I just looked at expel vestige again. You have to make a successful binding check to expel the vestige. So if you take that -10 and fail, you just flushed your once per day ability down the toilet.

Actually if you fail to bind a vestige, you still get the abilitites...its just that you are "influenced" by the Vestige.