Bite then grapple? Huh?

[alsih2o]

So, if I am a big ol' crocodile(or some other biting bad guy) and I attack you IF I hit with my attack (meaning I penetrate armor and such) then I can start a grapple as a free action.

This makes zero sense to me.

shouldn't my grapple start whether I penetrate your armor or not if I get my mouth on you?

Shouldn't it be grapple, and if successful a bite?

I kno mechanics don't always make sense, but this seems way off to me.

 

[dcollins]

It's a bit more abstract than you think. A large monster grinding someone up in their mouth does count as (use the rules of) a "grapple". Therefore, in order to start this process, they must sink their teeth into the victim to get a solid grip.

 

[alsih2o]

It's a bit more abstract than you think. A large monster grinding someone up in their mouth does count as (use the rules of) a "grapple". Therefore, in order to start this process, they must sink their teeth into the victim to get a solid grip.

But it seems very much that you could get a grasp on someone wihtout penetrating their armor.

Am I explainging myself poorly or just overthinking this? (Underthinking? )

 

[dcollins]

A bit. Think how more complicated it would be with an attack like that if you had to check both (a) if it scored a hit on AC, and (b) if it scored a touch attack. It would be kind of a drag.

 

[UltimaGabe]

But it seems very much that you could get a grasp on someone wihtout penetrating their armor.

You could. And thus, if the crocodile just wanted to grapple him, all he'd have to do is make a touch attack (as per the rules of grappling). However, since his primary goal is not to grapple, but to bite, he's going to all-out bite- and, if he succeeds, then look at that! He gets to grapple for free.

It's not expressly said, but the game focuses a lot on intent rather than occurance. Let's say you try to attack a guy, but miss and the DM narrates it as you hitting the shinplate on his leg. The question, of course, with your logic, would be, "Couldn't I try to trip him, then? I hit his leg, after all."

No, because you didn't try to trip him, you tried to hit him and missed.

The system is very abstract, as dcollins said. If you're not trying to do something, you don't do it, even if the situation seems very plausible.

 

[the Jester]

UltimaGabe sums it up nicely- if the croc wants to just grapple, it can do (as any character can), but it can instead do it for free if it gets a good chomp into you first.

However, I think AlSiH2O brings up an interesting idea.

How about a monster ability that's sort of the converse of Improved Grab, where if the monster gets a hold it gets a free attack?

(Oh, wait- suddenly, I realize that this is exactly what Rake is...)

 

[alsih2o]

Thanks, I frequently have a hard time grasping the rules.

UltimaGabe especially made it understandable.

 

[Ferret]

And now the Rules can try and grasp you! Ok that was bad. Sorry. I just had to try.....