Black company too deadly

[Pangias]

Hello Guys, i bought Black company CS, it's great. So i want to incorporate part of the system in my campaign.
I love most part of it....But i have a problem with the way healing and injuries works, it seems to be so deadly i must have missed the point.
For example the healing talent seems so weak.

So, for the one who already played, how did it affect the way your game goes? Do you have a huge death ratio?

And the magic system, it seems fine to me, but in game is it working???is it balanced???
what is your feedback after some games?

 

[Old Fezziwig]

I haven't played, but I've read the CS and the first novel, and the combat is wicked brutal in there (and healing took a long time, IIRC, even with One Eye's soup — I think it was him, but watch it be Silent now — and Croaker's healing ability). The game's meant to be a bit lethal as far as I can see.

Nick

 

[Khorod]

The setting is not meant for Player Spellcasters. The game book tries to do it justice with the idea that the players might dabble a bit.

Its supposed to be extremely lethal. That's the problem- the characters that survived in the books did so because of luck, low cunning, and extremely powerful patronage.

I bought the book more out of curiosity than any practical intention to run Black Company. If I did, I would have each player create a small team of guys in the company, and in each game he would play one. Individuals come and go, the company continues ever onward.

It would be interesting for two PCs to mourn the passing of two characters that had recently been their primaries...

 

[Paragon]

kind of like the old character tree in the original dark sun game. where you generated 2-3 pc's and they would stay within 2 lvls or so when advancing, that way when one died you could bring in another that was near the same lvl and perhaps had a reason for being there.
i agree the BC novels were very death heavy. people died all the time in those. cool in theory in a game but people get tired of generating characters all the time i find. i believe that was a problem with the old cthulu (sic) game. people tended to go mad. a lot. a lot a lot.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The game is leathal and is meant to be played as such. Much like Dark Legacies, it requires a huge shift in player mentality. If you're familiar with Rolemaster, it might be best to think of it like that.

Lots of missile fire.

Lots of using cover.

Lots of flanking.

Lots of trying to outmaneuver and sheet outpower the enemy.

 

[Old One]

Pangias,

Check out this thread over on the Green Ronin Forums:

Actual Play

The parent forum for this thread - "Mythic Vistas" - has a number of BCCS threads in it. Although I haven't run a true BCCS session yet, I am playtesting the magic and damage system for a Grim Tales/BCCS hybrid 1-shot I have coming up at an EN World game day in about a month.

Here are my thoughts (in no particular order):

1) Combat: Combat is deadly! If played straight up - the suprise round, MDT/Grievous Injuries, limited magical healing and lethal to non-lethal conversion for most healing magic - make getting a sword shoved through your gut a really bad thing. This mean strategy and tactics become much more important for long-term PC survival. Scouting, ambush, trickery, overwhelming force brought to bear at critical points and knowing when not to fight and/or when to retreat become very important.

Playing a BCCS PC in the same manner as a typical 3.x PC - "Hey...I will fight down to 1 hit point because I have that handy-dandy heal potion or Bob the Cleric is right behind me pumping healing spells into me." - will get you killed pretty quick.

This is intentional. The BCCS is designed to capture the flavor and spirit of the books, in which, as others have noted above, characters fall with frequency to weapons, vile sorcery and just plain bad luck. I think some of the suggestions made above make sense, like using a 2-3 deep PC tree. Kinda like "The Company is eternal, but members come and go".

That said, if you like the ruleset, but are worried over a player revolt with too many PC deaths, change things a bit. Ditch the infection rules, allow physicians and wizards with the Healing Talent to heal real damage, introduce magical curatives, etc. One change I am making is "Armor as Damage Conversion". It fits with the whole lethal/non-lethal damage approach and leads to fewer dead heros (to quote Wulf from Grim Tales).

2) Magic: This is not your daddy's D & D 3.x magic system. I am not sure what you mean by "balanced". If you are expecting "normal" 3.x effects at "normal" PC levels - such as a 5th level wizard hurling 5d6 lethal damage 20' radius fireballs - you will be disappointed. This system essentially requires you to toss your preconceived 3.x notions out the window. It is flexible, open-ended and fun to use/design once you get past the 3.x mental roadblock (which isn't easy to do ).

I gently disagree with Khorod...the magic system works perfectly fine in the context of the BCCS setting. If you are using typical 3.x magic as a benchmark, it comes off as a poor cousin, but does an excellent job of approximating the magic in the books. Lower level wizards (levels 1-7 or so) are somewhat "weaker" than their 3.x counterparts, but can create some pretty impressive effects once they hit the mid-range levels (8-15). What's more, with proper pacing, good feat selection and a bit of luck on their spell drain die rolls, they can litterly cast spells all day long. As with combat, magic requires a significant shift in perspective from 3.x, but works very well in the BCCS system.

3) DMing: I think BCCS could be a challenge for an inexperienced DM, particularly if you are relying on "published" adventures and "standard" CR/EL. If you are shooting for a contiguous story line and PCs that last a while, you will need to be a bit more circumspect about what you throw at them and how you pace the campaign. That said, if players insist on playing in the same "Damn the Torpedoes - Kick the Door Down" style as many do in 3.x, they will die, often and messily !

~ Old One

 

[swrushing]

And the magic system, it seems fine to me, but in game is it working???is it balanced???
what is your feedback after some games?

IMX it works, but it doesn't work "like DND".

First off, players and Gms should realize that the change in healing impacts the individual encounter drastically. In DND you have your hit points plus whatever healing the cleric(s) can crank out for use in any given encounter. in BC thats not the case. So, the Gm really needs to keep that in mind. Comparing to a typical DND fight, thats probably half the hit points you would have available.

Second, the protections are less, with fewer magic items, so more damage will be being taken vs avoided.

Third, without the after battle healing being as plentiful, the party's multiple encounter "staying power" is less, so a "typical DND dungeon" of a dozen combat encounters chained together one after another will cut down a BC party.

But, fortunately, the BC setting isn't really favoring these types of ecnounters and setups.

The "normal" BC COMBAt encounter, the one they run more often than not, is a surprise attack where the "PCs" took a lot of time and care to gain surprise and that surprise in the BC system is likely to be decisive.

BC is not "about" fond of "slugfests" where each side does their damage and one drops first, but more favoring one side ambushing the other and taking little to no resistance.

 

[Steel_Wind]

It is deadly, but that's the charm of it and the intent of the desginers.

Standard D&D healing mentality is *out the window*. Even the BBEG's had diffculty healing. It takes a lot of power in Black Company to change a point of damage to non-lethal damage.

The magic system is actually very cool. I was quite impressed with what I've read so far.

The Black Company is clearly not for everyone and is not designed for general D&D dungeon crawls. It is, however, a really excellent book and I was extremely impressed by Green Ronin's creativity with this book.

It's ENnie worthy material.

 

[Razuur]

The BCCS is an outstanding purchase, one of my top five this year so far.

I was going to say everything that Old One did, but he said it and he said it good.

The only thing I will add (and this is from memory) is that the physician does most of the "healing". There is a special physician feat, if I remember correctly, that allows the physician to aid the player and convert some deadly damage to subdual. He can't to it 20 times a day, but this isn't DnD. This is combat, black company style.

When the fighting begins, you better do it smart, and know when to duck out against a superior opponent.

the magic system is real neat too.

Razuur

 

[Old One]

The BCCS is an outstanding purchase, one of my top five this year so far.

I was going to say everything that Old One did, but he said it and he said it good.

The only thing I will add (and this is from memory) is that the physician does most of the "healing". There is a special physician feat, if I remember correctly, that allows the physician to aid the player and convert some deadly damage to subdual. He can't to it 20 times a day, but this isn't DnD. This is combat, black company style.

Razuur

Thanks !

To be an effective healer, you need three things:

1) Physician Character Background - Grants damage conversion of 1d2 up to 1d12 for heal checks of 16+ (1x per day per character). Also allows healing of hit point or ability damage at 3x the normal rate for a maximum of 12 patients. A 5th level PC under the care of a physician would heal 15 hps with 8 hours of rest and 30 hps for a full day of bed rest...not too bad!

2) Physician Feat - This requires 12 ranks of Heal, so it isn't available until 9th level, but it is pretty good. It allows you to convert your ranks in Heal with a successful Heal check of DC 15 + Damage/5 1x per day per patient. There is theoretically no limit on patients, but each check takes 30 minutes, so you are functionally limited to 16 patients per 8 hour period. If you have the Physician Character Background, you convert an additional 1d4.

3) Healing Talent - You have to be 1st magnitutude to select this spell talent, so that means a minimum of 4 wizard levels. Initially, you can't do much with it, but as you increase in power, you can help out quite a bit. A 4th level wizard with maxed out Magic Use ranks and 16 CHA will have a base Magic Use bonus of +14 (7 ranks + 3 CHA mod + 4 1st Magnitude mod). The DC for them to convert 3d6 damage is a seemingly out-of-reach DC 45. But, given extra time and some props, they could hit this. With an Apptitude of 11 (7 ranks of Magic Use + 4 1st Mag mod), it would normally take DC 45 - Apptitude 11 = 34 = 8 actions to cast the spell (Table 10-2, page 151). By extending the time 3 degrees from rounds to minutes to 10 mintues to 1 hour, the caster gets a x4 magnitude bonus modifier, increasing the Magic Use bonus to +26 (Taking Extra Time, page 152). By adding in a somatic prop, a material prop and a fetish prop (+4 for each, page 156), the Magic Use bonus increase to +38...enough to hit DC 45 by "taking 10".

So, with an hour of time, some props/fetishes and spell drain of 1d8+9 (less spell energy), this caster could convert 3d6 damage automatically. Doesn't sound like a lot compared to regular 3.x, but pretty darn powerful under the BCCS system. If the caster wanted to burn a point of spell energy, he/she could hit DC 50 automatically for 4d6 conversion, but drain would increase to 2d8+10 (less remaining spell energy).

A 10th level (2nd Magnitude) Wizard with maxed Magic Use and 18 CHA has a base Magic Use bonus of +25. Add in a somatic prop (+4), a material prop (+4) and an 800 XP fetish (+16) and he/she can convert 5d6 (DC 55) by "taking 10" or convert 6d6 (DC 60) by rolling anything greater than 1 on a d20. Either one would take 8 actions (4 full casting rounds).

Again...not 3.x level healing, but incredibly powerful in the BCCS setting.

NOTE: I haven't even taken into account various synergies. For instance, 5 or more ranks in Knowledge: Aracana grants a +2 bonus to all Magic Use checks. In addition, 5 or more ranks in heal grants a +2 Magic Use bonus to all Healing Talent castings. Either one of these would allow our 4th level wizard to hit DC 50 (4d6 conversion) by "taking 10", without burning a point of spell energy.

NOTE II: One of the quirks of the BCCS magic system is that it is more effective (at low levels) to add in more smaller dice than convert to larger dice. For instance, it cost +10 DC to increase from 1 hit point converted to 1d4 hit points converted. It costs an additional +10 DC to go from 1d4 to 1d6. However, you could increase from 1d4 to 3d4 for the same +10 DC increase. This holds true until you start throwing 6 or 7 dice (I think), at which time it is worth paying the extra +10 DC cost to move to higher dice.

~ OO