Blade Barrier Cheese (135d6 damage)

[Hypersmurf]

True.

Although I'm not fond of denying characters saves, under virtually any circumstance...

Reflex saves are about the only ones that ever are denied.

An unconscious creature is always considered "willing", but there aren't that many nasty spells that affect "willing creatures"... and being unconscious doesn't deny you a Will save.

So you can be autmoatically involuntarily teleported while unconscious, but not automatically involuntarily charmed...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

BZZT! Wrong.

Pinned characters are most certainly not helpless. If they were, grappling would be by far the most obscenely effective combat tactic in the game.

Well, half wrong.

They're not helpless... but they do have zero Dex and are considered immobile, so they do lose their Reflex save... which was the point of his post.

The "helpless" bit was incidental.

-Hyp.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

If you always give a character a save, then the dragon's MAIN tactic (grapple in mouth and breath) is removed. This is one of their special tactics to neutralize threats.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[youspoonybard]

Unless its explicitly denied.

I see a lot of posts where unconscious people don't get Will Saves while you're sleeping, etc.

I disagree with that.

Hyp, where does it say that being pinned means you have effectively 0 dex?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unless its explicitly denied.

I see a lot of posts where unconscious people don't get Will Saves while you're sleeping, etc.

I disagree with that.

When you're unconscious you're helpless.

When you're helpless you have an effective zero Dex.

When you have zero dex you can't move.

When you can't move, you can't use Evasion...

... as with a Reflex save for any creature.

Hyp, where does it say that being pinned means you have effectively 0 dex?

Under the Defender's AC Modifiers table in the Combat section. It also states under "When you're Pinned" that you're immobile.

-Hyp.

 

[youspoonybard]

I'm not disagreeing with your Hyp; I know better than that : P.

Personally, we (my group) have always treated people being pinned, held, etc, as having a -5 penalty (and no dex) on their save, but I still allowed it.

Guess I'll go bring this up to the players.

 

[Justinian]

I'd just like to say
Pinned characters are most certainly not helpless. If they were, grappling would be by far the most obscenely effective combat tactic in the game.

Pinned characters may not do anything but attempt to break the pin, and others get a +2 to hit them. That's it.

I meant immobile, not helpless. Good catch, everyone.

However, Saeviomagy, while grappling isn't the most effective tactic, it could be argued that pinning is. It's certainly one of the deadliest tactics. The following conditions apply while pinned:

1) No Reflex saves, as has been discussed.
2) Your mouth can be covered at the pinning character's option, making you unable to speak.
3) You are at 0 Dex and lose another 4 points to AC against melee attacks, while ranged attackers no longer need to randomly roll to hit you in the grapple.

As bad as grappling was against spellcasters, it's even worse now, since dimension door isn't enough. Two successful grapple checks, and a spellcaster can't cast anything that isn't silenced. These can even be done in a single full attack action.

Ranged attackers can slice up a pinned person without worrying about hitting their own side.

Do you have an alternative suggestion as to a deadlier combat tactic? While it's true that Improved Trip can lead to a lot of damage, that requires a series of feats. Anyone can grapple. It's one of the simplest combat maneuvers.