Blade Cascade Unleashed!

[Ginnel]

Now, are you just taking a jab at the folks who keep saying D&D is now an anime video game, or did this just naturally evolve from your character? Because if it's the latter, I believe I'm going to cry.

Seems like it has a Street fighter reference there as well

 

[pemerton]

Also, about free actions vs interrupts, I guess I am wrong in that free actions need to be taken on your (or in this case the dragon's) turn. However, as pointed out since its not an interrupt or an immediate reaction it would not interrupt blade crescendo. Though again, I am still not convinced the free aciton can be taken outside of your own turn.

This is all fairly clear.

PHB p 267 "You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant's turn."

PHB p 268 "Two action types ... require triggers... (Some powers require a trigger but are free actions or aren't actions at all.)"

MM p 85 "Bloodied Breath (free, when first bloodied, encounter) ... The dragon's breath weapon recharges, and the dragon uses it immediately."

Thus, the dragon breathes immediately upon being bloodied. It uses a free action to do so. The significance of it being a free action is that it doesn't count as the dragon's one immediate action per round (as per PHB p 268) - thus, for example, the dragon could hold a readied action and also use its Bloodied Breath.

If the dragon were to hit, the weakening would reduce (but obviously not mute) the crescendo.

EDIT: Further clarificatory text can be found in the PHB p 268:

"An immediate reaction might interrupt other actions a combatant takes after its triggering action. For example, if a power lets you attack as an immediate reaction when an attack hits you, your action happens before the monster that hit you can take any other action. If a monster has a power that lets it make two attack rolls against you as a standard action, and the first one hits, you can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll."

That text seems to apply precisely to the dragon (designated by "you") fighting the ranger (designated by "monster").

 

[Sitara]

"An immediate reaction might interrupt other actions a combatant takes after its triggering action. For example, if a power lets you attack as an immediate reaction when an attack hits you, your action happens before the monster that hit you can take any other action. If a monster has a power that lets it make two attack rolls against you as a standard action, and the first one hits, you can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll."

That text seems to apply precisely to the dragon (designated by "you") fighting the ranger (designated by "monster").

No, the dragon would breathe AFTER the crescendo, since its free action is not an interrupt But yes, it would breathe before it got its turn.

Now, are you just taking a jab at the folks who keep saying D&D is now an anime video game, or did this just naturally evolve from your character? Because if it's the latter, I believe I'm going to cry.

 

[helium3]

Keep in mind, particularly in this thread's "test case," that blade cascade's potential for brokenness is only exaggerated by a level disparity. So taking a 15th level ranger against an 11th level white dragon (speaking of which -- was this templated or something? the MM has adult white as 9th level at 23 ac, no?) would look a lot different than a 15th level ranger (with friends, even) against a level 17 elder, with 31 AC. Namely, the miss chance jumps by 40% if the 11th level one was on the die to begin with.

Can Blade Cascade still get out of control against more realistic opponents? Sure it can. But you have to work a lot harder to do it which means you can curtail it without much intervention.

Yep. From PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, a 4 level difference between monster and character can mean a LOT. At this point, I've only seen monsters that are four levels lower than characters but the results aren't pretty. The characters hardly miss and the monsters barely hit.

I'll know how things look the other way by the end of tomorrow.

 

[pemerton]

No, the dragon would breathe AFTER the crescendo, since its free action is not an interrupt But yes, it would breathe before it got its turn.

No.

Some actions are immediate interrupts, which resolve before their triggers.

Some actions are immediate reactions, which resolves after their triggers.

There are also (as the text from the PHB which I quoted indicates) free actions which are triggered. We are not told whether they are immediate reactions or immeidate interrupts, but let's suppose that they behave like immediate reactions (like readied actions).

Bloodied Breath is such an action. It does not occur prior to being bloodied; it occurs after it (so eg the Dragon suffers any penalty to attack from being bloodied that might result from some effect that it is subject to).

But, as the text I quoted from the PHB indicates, it would still go between the Crescendo attacks. To requote, with "Dragon/it" substituted in place of "you" and "Ranger" substituted in place of "monster":

"An immediate reaction might interrupt other actions a combatant takes after its triggering action. For example, if a power lets a Dragon attack as an immediate reaction when an attack hits it, its action happens before the Ranger that hit it can take any other action. If a Ranger has a power that lets it make two attack rolls against a Dragon as a standard action, and the first one hits, the Dragon can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll."

How much clearer could the rules be?

 

[Destil]

Here's a quick attempt to truly min-max the power. There's several ways to go:

Standard TWF ranger. Gives you the best damage per hit, good attack rolls.

Fighter Multiclass for Kensai. For that extra reroll, should increase the streak length the most.

Beasthunter Paragon Path. +4 to hit quarried target after spending an action point. But less for two-weapon fighting types overall.

Other class multi-classed with ranger. Can't do this until higher level... but a Fighter or Rogue could up the attack bonuses a bit more this way.

This elf uses every option possible to add to attack bonus except for Beasthunter (which is kinda poor with +1 Dex... at least stormwarden is OK). I ran out of feats to increase damage, so cleric multiclass for bless as as the only easy way to pick up a power bonus to attacks on his own. His magic items are a slight bit above what the DMG gives to make PCs above 1st, but if you compare that to the treasure table it's fairly low, and in general a character who plays up to a level will expect to have about one and a half times as much wealth.

[sblock]Charlie
Elf Ranger 15
Str 20 +5
Dex 12 +1
Con 14 +2
Int 11 +0
Wis 20 +5
Cha 9 -1

Attacks: +3 Prof, +7 Level, +4 Magic, +5 Str
Damage: 1d10+5 Str, +4 Magic, +1 Two-Weapon Fighting
Critical: +4d6+1d10

-At Will-
Twin Strike
Hit and Run

-Encounter-
Disruptive Strike
Hawk's Talon
Clearing Ground
Armor Splinter

-Daily-
Two-Wolf Punce
Attacks on the Run
Blade Cascade

-Utility-
Bless
Weave Through the Fray
Expeditious Stride
Throw Cuation to the Wind

-Feats-
Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus (swords)
Toughness (ranger bonus)
Leathal Hunter
Blood Thirst
Devestating Critical
Initiate of the Faith
Acolyte Power
Elven Accuracy

-Other-
Bladestorm
Stormstep Action

Equipment:
Two +4 bastard swords
+3 darkleaf hide armor
Cloak of Survival +3
Gauntlets of Ogre Power[/sblock]

Round 1: Cast Bless, Move 7, Mark
Round 2: Caution to the Wind, Move 7, Action Point (before attacks if needed to teleport into melee), Armor Splinter, Blade Cascade

Attacks are +22 Vs Ac (+3 Prof, +7 Level, +4 Magic, +5 Str, +1 Power, +2 Unnamed)

Average damage per hit is 17.5: 1d10+12 (+5 Str, +4 Magic, +1 Two-Weapon Fighting, +2 Weapon Focus), not counting crits which pile on 4d6+1d10.

One Hit with Armor Splinter lowers AC by 5, both by 10.

Level 16 Monsters

Thunderfury Boar (15 brute)
HP: 181, AC 27
Needs a 5 to hit with each armor splinter. One reduces the to hit to a 1 for Cascade and will generally end it.

Salamander Archer (15 arterarly)
HP: 114, AC 28
Needs a 6 to hit with each armor splinter. One reduces the to hit to a 1 for Cascade and will almost always end it.

Drow Priest (15 lurker, leader)
HP: 139, AC 28
Needs a 6 to hit with each armor splinter. One reduces the to hit to a 1 for Cascade and will almost always end it.

Githyanki Gish (15th elite Skirmisher)
HP: 226, AC 31
Needs a 6 to hit with each armor splinter. One reduces the to hit to a 4 for cascade, both reduces it to a 1.

Adult Red Dragon (15 solo soldier)
HP: 750, AC 33
(and bloodied breath when reduced to half)
Needs an ll to hit with each armor splinter. One reduces the to hit for cascade to 6, both to 1.

Anyone with better math skill want to take a crack at the damage numbers? What's throwing me off is the odds of missing with armor splinter and needing to use the reroll there...

Yeah, this guy can certifiably kill one non-solo per day without problem, and I'm guessing the elite comes out as better than even odds. But I don't think this is going to down the dragon by any stretch on its own...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But, as the text I quoted from the PHB indicates, it would still go between the Crescendo attacks. To requote, with "Dragon/it" substituted in place of "you" and "Ranger" substituted in place of "monster":

"An immediate reaction might interrupt other actions a combatant takes after its triggering action. For example, if a power lets a Dragon attack as an immediate reaction when an attack hits it, its action happens before the Ranger that hit it can take any other action. If a Ranger has a power that lets it make two attack rolls against a Dragon as a standard action, and the first one hits, the Dragon can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll."

How much clearer could the rules be?

Pemerton, are you standing in for Hypersmurf while he's on vacation or something?

 

[pemerton]

Pemerton, are you standing in for Hypersmurf while he's on vacation or something?

Well, sometimes when a rules lawyer is not available a plain old lawyer has to step in and do the job!

Anyway, while there may be some oversights or errors in the books I find it a bit annoying when people are diagnosing problems that aren't even there.

Like the Careful Strike/Sure Strike thing: we know from the pre-release info that these powers were revised and rebalanced several times as a result of playtesting. Rather than assume that WoTC can't do basic probability calculations, we should be trying to identify those effects that make it so important that a particular attack be the one to hit.

For Sure Strike vs Reaping Strike, it would be any power from a magic item that allows a condition to be placed as a result of a hit (ie damage is not the main aim of the attack). The same will hold true for Careful Strike vs Twin Strike with two melee weapons. I haven't worked it out yet for Careful Strike vs Twin Strike with ranged attacks, but I'm still working on the theory that WoTC had something definite in mind when they wrote those powers.

 

[Sitara]

Well, with careful strike you have atleast a chance to hit something that has a 2 point higher AC than your maximum attack total, barring critical hits ofcourse which you can acieve with careful strike as well (and actually have the chance to do crit damage, instead of normal damage which is what you do on a crit that is still lower than the AC)