Level Up (A5E) Bladechanter and Eldritch Archer

[baraqijal]

The list of spells that synergize with Bladechanter/Eldritch Archer seems very small if we're not expected to use spells from the PHB. Wizards have very few single target/touch options in their spell list. So far the only spells I can see that you can use are the following:

1st:
Charm Person (Though, arguably, you're damaging the target in the same action that you're charming it, doesn't that break the effect?)
Magic Missile (as long as you only target the one creature you're hitting, best/only option imho)
Corpse Explosion (Eldritch Archer only - the spell already auto-targets, you give up an attack for some action economy and range perhaps)

2nd:
Acid Arrow (Perfect example, though only marginally better than magic missile)
Blindness
Enlarge/Reduce
Ray of Enfeeblement

3rd:
Bestow Curse
Haste

It feels like the big payoff for delaying extra attack for 5 levels is being able to, essentially, cast magic missile along with one of your attacks (and depending on what you're fighting elemental arrows can double your damage, or just be a neat special effect). Arrow Enchanter then becomes essentially just bonus accuracy option, as magic missile [3d4+3(10)/1d4+1(3) per SL) is superior to 2d6(7)/1d6(3) per SL. Also, once you get signature spell at 5th level in Wizard, magic missile doesn't even cost a spell slot, and is equivalent to using Arrow Enchanter and burning a 2nd level slot.

I'd be open to other opinions/interpretations. I still think the synergy tree is worth it, though I suspect it's not necessarily mechanically optimized (which is fine)

 

[tetrasodium]

The list of spells that synergize with Bladechanter/Eldritch Archer seems very small if we're not expected to use spells from the PHB. Wizards have very few single target/touch options in their spell list. So far the only spells I can see that you can use are the following:

1st:
Charm Person (Though, arguably, you're damaging the target in the same action that you're charming it, doesn't that break the effect?)
Magic Missile (as long as you only target the one creature you're hitting, best/only option imho)
Corpse Explosion (Eldritch Archer only - the spell already auto-targets, you give up an attack for some action economy and range perhaps)

2nd:
Acid Arrow (Perfect example, though only marginally better than magic missile)
Blindness
Enlarge/Reduce
Ray of Enfeeblement

3rd:
Bestow Curse
Haste

It feels like the big payoff for delaying extra attack for 5 levels is being able to, essentially, cast magic missile along with one of your attacks (and depending on what you're fighting elemental arrows can double your damage, or just be a neat special effect). Arrow Enchanter then becomes essentially just bonus accuracy option, as magic missile [3d4+3(10)/1d4+1(3) per SL) is superior to 2d6(7)/1d6(3) per SL. Also, once you get signature spell at 5th level in Wizard, magic missile doesn't even cost a spell slot, and is equivalent to using Arrow Enchanter and burning a 2nd level slot.

I'd be open to other opinions/interpretations. I still think the synergy tree is worth it, though I suspect it's not necessarily mechanically optimized (which is fine)

431 spellcraft dc+0 altered effect seems like it could easily make a nontouch spell into a touch spell. are there any spells you think would be particularly well suited if altered? It might even be reasonable for some of those to be reasonably easy to just buy in scroll form to scribe without needing to do the spellcrafting.

 

[baraqijal]

431 spellcraft dc+0 altered effect seems like it could easily make a nontouch spell into a touch spell. are there any spells you think would be particularly well suited if altered? It might even be reasonable for some of those to be reasonably easy to just buy in scroll form to scribe without needing to do the spellcrafting.

I guess you could go through the effort of making a single target version of area of effect spells, but the damage in general is going to be similar or worse than magic missile. Even a rare single-target fireball at 6d6(21) compares with a 3rd level magic missile at 5d4+5(17), and doesn't offer a save for half.

Once you get the third feat in the chain and can start attacking enemies in a cone-spell area of effect, then spellcrafting spells to have cone effects would be really effective.

 

[Titus Divinitus]

I agree, I was trying to understand the benefit of casting on a hit with such a limited range of options. It's clear they eliminated cantrips so you couldn't add the easy pop of damage, but that seems the point of the ability. I would love to understand what the designers thought a bladechanter would cast on a hit. Maybe even present a scenario in which this ability makes sense.

 

[Morrus]

The list of spells that synergize with Bladechanter/Eldritch Archer seems very small if we're not expected to use spells from the PHB.

You are expected to use spells from any source you want to! That said, we got all the PHB ones as far as I know (with a tiny handful of exceptions).

 

[Titus Divinitus]

Not sure what you are saying Morrus, are you suggesting sourcing spells from O5e, not from A5e? If you source using A5e, the list is small and not well suited to single target "add on" casting. It's a dead end capability with poorly thought out mechanics. Would love for you to list a few spells you think would be well suited for a bladechanter to cast after a strike.

 

[Morrus]

Not sure what you are saying Morrus, are you suggesting sourcing spells from O5e, not from A5e?

You can source spells from anywhere you want. The whole point of LU is that's it's compatible with O5E, so that wonderful vast library of thousands of spells from sources both official and not is completely available to you.

 

[Titus Divinitus]

Cross compatibility is suggested but not implied. I wouldn't assume access to O5e spells while considering this multi-class. This seems more of the expectation you would have for your home game, but not for the general A5e audience.

So you do see A5e being used along side O5e, hand in hand. Cross over the feat lists, etc. Spell lists. Some O5e classes playing along side A5e classes? Old fighter side by side with A5e fighter?

Haven't seen a lot of expectation for that so far, but I'm somewhat new to the A5e world here and may not be up to speed.

 

[baraqijal]

Really appreciate the insight Morrus. It feels like in practice these two feat chains might boil down to essentially ranged paladin smite. Chromatic Orb then becomes the best option. You can choose the elemental damage (which thematically fits perfectly with the feat chain), and other save-based options just offer some minor action economy for a delayed and decreased effectiveness (the loss of +2 to +3 of hit/damage/save).

I'm curious from either anyone who has played/play-tested someone who used either of these feat chains, or from the designer of the feat what spells or situations would help the character with these feats shine (Other than trading some additional damage and action economy for lower to-hit/damage numbers). Aside from the amazing thematics of these feats, I wonder if they compare favorably to great weapon master/sharpshooter?

I wonder if one feat that had escalating effects based off of your levels would be better. One benefit at 6 combined fighter/wizard levels, additional benefit on 7 combined levels, and a final one on 11 combined levels. (Or 3/3 to start and escalating benefits on minimum combined levels).

 

[tetrasodium]

I agree, I was trying to understand the benefit of casting on a hit with such a limited range of options. It's clear they eliminated cantrips so you couldn't add the easy pop of damage, but that seems the point of the ability. I would love to understand what the designers thought a bladechanter would cast on a hit. Maybe even present a scenario in which this ability makes sense.

I'm running a clean break trying to limit players to a5e & have players heading in different ways so haven't given it deep thought. I've seen it come up in discussion a few times though and would either create fitting rare spells, allow spellcraft(?) to research spells switched to spell attacks, or some combo of the two.

With the three and three requirements I feel like specifics for either of those would depend a lot on choices made over those levels & group dynamic.