D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

[clearstream]

Yeeseash. 21 pages of theorycrafting. I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that this entire thread is kinda driving me crazy. I feel like everyone in here talking has no experience actually playing a blade singer.

Elves are my second favorite race after tieflings, so let me give you some feedback from my game involving a bladesinger.
8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Wis, 16 Int, 10 Cha.
Bladesinger 7 (game end)
Warcaster Feat taken at level 4
Cantrips: Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade, Firebolt, Prestigitation, Shocking Grasp
Spells: Mage Armor, Shield, Charm Person, Absorb Elements, Detect Magic, Featherfall, Jump, Sleep, Invisibility, Misty Step, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, Spider Climb, Haste, Counterspell, Tiny Hut, Fire Shield.

Thank you for your report. It looks like a fun character, but not one that speaks to my design critique.

The starting array I am discussing (which is actually a few points lower than our PC*) is 16, 15, 13, 12, 10, 9 base (or 1pt better than the average for 4d6 drop lowest). Add High-Elf and take the ASI at 4th. And I don't see Blur on your list - did you have it? Additionally, Warcaster is a mechanically lower-power choice compared with the ASI which would give +1 AC, +1 attack, +1 damage, +1 initiative, +1 save, or +1 AC, +1 Concentration, +1 spells prepared.

Any class can be played at multiple power levels and your case is a great example of a lower power BS. In part, it reinforces why I am making that critique. I love the BS concept, it's just the plain-as-day design fault that I dislike, that lead to overshadowing of martials. Concretely, you chose to have a couple of points lower AC than you could have had (and a further point lower than the stat array that worries me), and based on your report you didn't use Blur. I can see how that leads to needing Shield more, and feeling more on edge in each combat.




*That's a PC in the TotYP campaign that I am playing in. Plenty of chance to observe character in actual play.

 

[Mort]

Thank you for your report. It looks like a fun character, but not one that speaks to my design critique.

I'm glad someone posted an actual play experience.

Keep in mind, choices are only "obvious" in hind sight. Heck it never occurred to me that blur is a better choice for the BS than haste (because imposing disadvantage is just that good) most of the time. Once it was mentioned and I checked it, then it was obvious.

Same with war caster, it sure looks attractive at 4th. The BS because of the high concentration bonus AND the fact that he always has a hand free to cast doesn't need it - but I bet advantage on the concentration save really helped from levels 4-7. I'll bet he could point to specific situations where without it he'd have failed the save and he and/or the party would have been in big trouble.

His post does show that the BS is 100% viable as a frontliner through level 7. Hopefully that will be dispositive to those convinced the BS can't reliably hang in melee.





Sent from my SM-G930V using EN World mobile app

 

[clearstream]

Bladesinger 7 (game end)

From level 5 spells on through level 8 have not much to help out my character; it wasn't until level 9 that I had another spell to help me melee it out.

Can you expand on this? It sounds like you played the character to level 7. Is that right? Are you talking about spell levels 5-8, or character levels? Did you reach character (or spell) level 9?

Mage Armor + Blur is so efficient, BS is using all their higher slots for wizardry, right? Did you choose something for melee? What?

 

[Mephista]

Same with war caster, it sure looks attractive at 4th. The BS because of the high concentration bonus AND the fact that he always has a hand free to cast doesn't need it - but I bet advantage on the concentration save really helped from levels 4-7. I'll bet he could point to specific situations where without it he'd have failed the save and he and/or the party would have been in big trouble.

Actually, the main reason I took War Caster was for the cantrip OA. Booming Blade made my character stickier than they would otherwise have been. The Concentration helped me keep Haste running - I don't think I actually dropped that spell ever since I got it thanks to all the Concentration boosts, and that, as a whole, just kept me alive longer and increased my damage output again due to the free attack, or let me dash to the back rows to handle enemy ranged units.

 

[clearstream]

Actually, the main reason I took War Caster was for the cantrip OA. Booming Blade made my character stickier than they would otherwise have been. The Concentration helped me keep Haste running - I don't think I actually dropped that spell ever since I got it thanks to all the Concentration boosts, and that, as a whole, just kept me alive longer and increased my damage output again due to the free attack, or let me dash to the back rows to handle enemy ranged units.

Yup, I believe Booming Blade has the target of the attack as its target so can be used with Warcaster: for 5d8+N damage seeing as the target is perforce moving! Potentially stacked with another 2d8 if you also hit it in your own turn, right? The ASI is better, but this is a neat combo.

Your character made it to 7th level? You had 4 slots that qualified for Haste, right? Did you find you ever ran out?

 

[Mephista]

Yup, I believe Booming Blade has the target of the attack as its target so can be used with Warcaster: for 5d8+N damage seeing as the target is perforce moving! Potentially stacked with another 2d8 if you also hit it in your own turn, right? The ASI is better, but this is a neat combo.

Eh, I don't really think it is better. About this time is when I got my +1 weapon and the elven chain. Raising my dex would have just equaled out to the armor, and my weapon gave me an extra +1 damage/hit. I could have gotten more +1 hit/damage, but at this point, I was hitting with enough frequency that it wasn't that big of a deal. Don't forget that we had a lore bard in the party who could buff us. In the end, raising Dex would have just been +1 damage and +1 Initiative. Meanwhile, as a scout, I could usually arrange to go first by virtue of finding the enemy first. So, ultimately, I felt that I was just passing up on +1 damage, in exchange for some hefty increase in tactics and potential damage output.

And raising Int wasn't necessarily better, because I had a decent chance of getting a headband of Intellect, due to the nature of my GM and how they handled magic items.

Your character made it to 7th level? You had 4 slots that qualified for Haste, right? Did you find you ever ran out?

Yes. Especially early on. 7th level was reached immediately before the final boss, and even then, I used Fire Shield during that battle as well, so not all my resources were devoted to Haste.

 

[Ancalagon]

We need a 5e Magus. The eldrich knight is a fighter who dables in magic to enhance his combat. The bladesigner is a mage who dables in fighting - and can become a good fighter if he focuses on that (but I suspect, is then hindered in his wizardly duties).

The Magus (in pathfinder) was a 2/3 caster (top slot level 6) with 1d8. It should be possible to have a decent half/half class?

 

[Rhenny]

[MENTION=23]Ancalagon[/MENTION] It looks like Xanathar's Guide will have a War Wizard. From what Jeremy Crawford says, it will have a mix of evoker and abjuration spells, some kind of innate magical shielding, and be beefier than a standard wizard so that it can stay in the battle and survive. I wonder how this will go over? It sounds pretty good to me, but I'm an old schooler who has always thought that magic should be more powerful than plain old fighting.

 

[Mephista]

We need a 5e Magus. The eldrich knight is a fighter who dables in magic to enhance his combat. The bladesigner is a mage who dables in fighting - and can become a good fighter if he focuses on that (but I suspect, is then hindered in his wizardly duties).

Oh, she's not hindered at all. No problem at all! Wizarding duties involve looking down on others and trampling over them, right? Because that's totally in the bag.

*cough*

I'm guessing, by "duties" you're referring to the role of being a controller or AoE artillery? In which case, its not hindered, its outright impossible. There's not enough spell slots to do both. Furthermore, most wizards who focus on doing that kind of thing also get wands and a staff that extends their ability, while bladesingers tend to get magical weapons and armors and not the staves and rods.

As for the Magus? It would be possible with a Sorcerer plus some new metamagics.

 

[Ancalagon]

[MENTION=23]Ancalagon[/MENTION] It looks like Xanathar's Guide will have a War Wizard. From what Jeremy Crawford says, it will have a mix of evoker and abjuration spells, some kind of innate magical shielding, and be beefier than a standard wizard so that it can stay in the battle and survive. I wonder how this will go over? It sounds pretty good to me, but I'm an old schooler who has always thought that magic should be more powerful than plain old fighting.

It sounds like an interesting subclass, but it really isn't what the magus was.