D&D 5E (2014) Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

[clearstream]

So, after the second fight, same as the first, the cleric is using a 3rd slot for the healing word and is down to 0/0/2, plus the prayer so 0/0/1. The cleric has burned their entire spell list to prop up the bladesinger, and you think this means the bladesinger is a really good tank?

The Healing Words were never on BS, they were to help other characters, which I haven't noticed any other tank option being able to prevent from being damaged either. Have you? I think in a super-deadly fight, you have to expect to burn more than average resources.

3, 3 encounters is what I said, not 6. Inflating my statements to win arguments doesn't reflect well on you.

I'm not inflating. You appear to be counting the casts I reporting for a super-deadly encounter, and extrapolating out that same resource expenditure across the whole day. Let's put it another way: do you think BS expends the same resources in medium to hard encounters? Because I'm not finding that necessary in playing through them.

And, huh? Most encounters don't merit the casting of a single shield? What numbers are you running to show this? Certainly not the one you proposed, and are you really going to play the bladesinger on the assumption she'll never need to cast shield so you can expend those slots freely on other things?

Previously you argued that we should use the values in the DMG. Giants have better accuracy than the "standard" CR 5 creature, which has +6. With +6 against AC 22 most creatures are hitting only 1:16.

Bladesinger, AC 23, standing up to 3 giants at tank. Assume the bladesinger is out front and the giants are in 'smash closest thing first' mode to start. All three giants attack the bladesinger, first with a toss of a rock, then in melee second round --

Bladesinger wins initiative 75% of the time (+4 vs -1).

Round the first:
Bladesinger casts blur, moves to intercept (or just better position to protect the party). Activates bladesong.

Giants all toss rocks at bladesinger and close. Hit on 15+, or 30%, blur reduces to 9%, crits are 0.25%, 3 attacks, so bladesinger is hit by 1 rock is roughly 25%. One rock deals an average of 21.5 damage. Bladesinger at 6th with 14 CON has 31. Probably wants to shield that.

Yes, in super-deadly encounters, I agree our BS needs to occasionally Shield. On average so far, I have found that to be 1-2 times.

Super-deadly, remember. As I said, in most encounters, BS will hardly ever need to Shield. I'll also point out that you seem to be assuming no contribution by another Wizard and comparing with that. In a super-deadly encounter, characters will get hit. There will always be resource expenditure. BS can choose not to contribute, or could contribute with exactly the same spells... or can overshadow the martial tank in their party.

 

[clearstream]

Don't forget...if BS gets hit while concentrating on Blur, make con check or lose concentration.

It's not possible to forget that in Fantasy Grounds, because it makes those checks automatically

Note that singing BS adds Int to those checks. Fa-la-la-la and all that.

 

[FrogReaver]

What character other than a raging barbarian is going to survive 6 giant attacks at that level?

 

[clearstream]

So you can pick a party setup that props up the bladesinger and then claim that the bladesinger is the star? Not terribly interested.

And again, I used @Mort's chosen encounter. Outline another adventuring party and encounter, and I will run that.

@Mort chose the level, the foes, and the four character classes. I chose Arcane Trickster for the Rogue, but discovered with the Divination Wizard play through that Trickster is poor when you lack a tank. So if you choose a Rogue we should fix that. I believe a Cleric is a very reasonable choice for class. You need to also nominate who is going to switch in for BS in the counter-case.

You seem to think I am optimising this for BS. I'm not. But if you dislike @Mort's setup, nominate another.

 

[Ovinomancer]

What character other than a raging barbarian is going to survive 6 giant attacks at that level?

A Champion does pretty well, actually. Almost as effective as the bladesinger with blur, warding bond, shield, and mage armor up.

Champ, sword and board, defensive style, AC 21, dodging. Chance to be hit by hill giants is 16+ or 25%. With dodge, that's 19% chance of being hit per attack. Damage is 18.5. 6 attacks. Average damage is 21. Champion is down 1/3.

Or, Champion, sword and board, defensive style, AC 21, not dodging. Change to be hit is 25%. Damage from 6 attacks is 28. Still under hitpoint max.

Or, Champion, greatsword, GWF style, AC 18, not dodging. Chance to be hit is 55%. Damage from 6 attacks is 61.65. HP are 64, so still alive.

Warding bond halves the above damage, which for the first gives 7 rounds of full assault, the second 5 rounds, the last 4 rounds. Without it, the first lasts 4 rounds, the second 3 rounds and that last 2 rounds (1 less for all if they lose initiative).

Champ, without the expense of spell slots, does pretty well. Take Sentinal or GWM (as appropriate) and stickiness or damage outlay is better than bladesinger as well. Having other party members provide spells/resources to improve the Champ helps out a lot as well.

 

[Tony Vargas]

In that one fight. The bladesinger's day isn't over with that one fight.

Not under the assumed 6-8 encounter day, certainly! But not every campaign hits that target consistently.

The next batch of hill giants needs spells as well.

Nod. It's really just one example of how the BS may use it's slots, of course, it can also do whatever every other wizard might do if some other use of slots seemed likely to be more efficiently...

I've clearly stated it a number of times: the bladesinger can either be a mediocre tank or a wizard, but not both at the same time.

I must be missing something. Must the BS be in melee and/or not casting to use it's AC buff? It doesn't sound like it. The limitation, such as it is, on casters is slot attrition, afterall, and all casters already face it, having one more option to spend those slots on doesn't change that, just increases the chance of having the 'best' possible thing to pull out in a given situation...

...if you can recognize what that might be....

One Mage Armor cast per day + one second level spell per encounter is hardly burning through resources.

Maybe not for a 3-deadly-day, but what about the expected 6-8 medium-hard day, with 2-3 short rests?

 

[James Gasik]

Having seen actual Bladesingers in action, a lot of this comes down to intelligent play. Though having the same proficiency bonus as everyone else, the Wizard is designed to AVOID melee combat, and is very effective at it, having multiple defensive spells ranging from "the best light armor in the universe", "no that didn't hit", "nice, roll again", "I'm not even HERE right now", "go ahead, hit me, see where that gets you", and "resistance to everything". And those are rarely the best ways to shut down an enemy. If you give the Wizard better AC, she needs to cast those spells less often, and can focus on better uses of their magic- there was a lot of talk about multiclassed/Mountain Dwarf Wizards when 5e first came out.

However, as play progressed, Wizard players noted that there was rarely any reason to need that AC- in most combats, getting to the Wizard in the first place isn't all that easy, especially once they put a "zone of nope" between them and the enemy (grease/web/sleet storm) or just takes enemies out of the fight entire (sleep/hold person/hypnotic pattern).

The Bladesinger is in a strange position, with their ability to get "warrior-like" AC without diluting their casting abilities or having Dwarven blood for at least 2 combats a fight. Really, on that alone, we're basically saying the 'singer gets 2 extra uses of a defensive buff per short rest, which is already better than what other traditions give, but most people seem to downrate this feature because, again, it's already known that Wizards are already good at avoiding combat.

And it's a really good defensive buff, able to grant +3-+5 AC, and an equally good buff to Concentration. But again, why is that Wizard in melee? It's not like there's all THAT many good close range spells.

So right off the bat, we have to accept the truth. The Bladesinger IS very strong, by the numbers, but a well-played Wizard doesn't NEED it's advantages. Any discussion of Bladesinger melee shenanigans has to start with the acknowledgement that this is a subpar strategy for the Wizard.

Having gotten past that, we then note that in at least 2 battles per short rest (which can basically be all day unless you're being stingy enough with short rests that the Warlock can't do anything but eldritch spam) the Wizard becomes the best class for casting in melee- high AC and concentration. They're better than the Dragon Sorcerer, and even the Paladin can't equal their concentration until they get their Aura. And even if the Paladin has good spells to cast (she does!), well, good luck getting most Paladins to accept that ("if I cast spell how would I kill things with a bucket of d8's?").

Hell, the 'singer is better at melee casting than the Cleric, who is actually supposed to be able to do this (weird shield interactions notwithstanding) because nobody bothered to give the Cleric a buff to concentration!

So ok, the Bladesinger is in melee range, when he has no real reason to be. While there, he benefits from one of the best defensive packages the game has to offer. Booming Blade and Shocking Grasp are at least equal to Battlemaster Maneuvers (and can be used at will!). The only real weakness the 'singer has is...2 less hit points per level than the Fighter (and an additional -2 at level 1; actual numbers will vary based on Constitution). Which the Wizard class already tends to trivialize in a lot of ways.

And, on top of all of this, the Bladesinger can always fall back to...being a Wizard. IMO, the real weakness of the Bladesinger is that you have to be an Elf! Imagine if we could get Genasi or Tieflings in on this action...

The real problem here isn't the Bladesinger's design. It's just some of the system's sacred cows running around in the china shop again. Magic is just better, and having more magic is better than anything else, because there are no real rules on what Magic can and can't do in D&D. Anything any class can do can probably be replicated magically, and magic can do things nothing else in the system can do.

The argument is being made that a Bladesinger will burn all of his spells to replicate being a Fighter. The problem with that argument is that we're not saying the Bladesinger can't do it, or can't be effective at it- we're saying it's a poor use of the Bladesinger's spells!

In other words, we're looking at Thor mixing it up in melee and saying "Hey, cut that out- we have a Hulk for that! You should be flying around and shooting lightning at things!".

 

[Mort]

Maybe not for a 3-deadly-day, but what about the expected 6-8 medium-hard day, with 2-3 short rests?

Arcane recovery will help for the spells, shield is only first level after all, blur is only second level.

The bladesong resets every short rest, that should be fine with judicious use.

The resource issue is one every mage must face. Most I've seen in actual play start getting REAL antsy when they are down to just a few low level spells, the BS can function with only a few spells remaining quite well.



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[Mort]

Having seen actual Bladesingers in action, a lot of this comes down to intelligent play. Though having the same proficiency bonus as everyone else, the Wizard is designed to AVOID melee combat, and is very effective at it, having multiple defensive spells ranging from "the best light armor in the universe", "no that didn't hit", "nice, roll again", "I'm not even HERE right now", "go ahead, hit me, see where that gets you", and "resistance to everything". And those are rarely the best ways to shut down an enemy. If you give the Wizard better AC, she needs to cast those spells less often, and can focus on better uses of their magic- there was a lot of talk about multiclassed/Mountain Dwarf Wizards when 5e first came out.

However, as play progressed, Wizard players noted that there was rarely any reason to need that AC- in most combats, getting to the Wizard in the first place isn't all that easy, especially once they put a "zone of nope" between them and the enemy (grease/web/sleet storm) or just takes enemies out of the fight entire (sleep/hold person/hypnotic pattern).

The Bladesinger is in a strange position, with their ability to get "warrior-like" AC without diluting their casting abilities or having Dwarven blood for at least 2 combats a fight. Really, on that alone, we're basically saying the 'singer gets 2 extra uses of a defensive buff per short rest, which is already better than what other traditions give, but most people seem to downrate this feature because, again, it's already known that Wizards are already good at avoiding combat.

And it's a really good defensive buff, able to grant +3-+5 AC, and an equally good buff to Concentration. But again, why is that Wizard in melee? It's not like there's all THAT many good close range spells.

So right off the bat, we have to accept the truth. The Bladesinger IS very strong, by the numbers, but a well-played Wizard doesn't NEED it's advantages. Any discussion of Bladesinger melee shenanigans has to start with the acknowledgement that this is a subpar strategy for the Wizard.

Having gotten past that, we then note that in at least 2 battles per short rest (which can basically be all day unless you're being stingy enough with short rests that the Warlock can't do anything but eldritch spam) the Wizard becomes the best class for casting in melee- high AC and concentration. They're better than the Dragon Sorcerer, and even the Paladin can't equal their concentration until they get their Aura. And even if the Paladin has good spells to cast (she does!), well, good luck getting most Paladins to accept that ("if I cast spell how would I kill things with a bucket of d8's?").

Hell, the 'singer is better at melee casting than the Cleric, who is actually supposed to be able to do this (weird shield interactions notwithstanding) because nobody bothered to give the Cleric a buff to concentration!

So ok, the Bladesinger is in melee range, when he has no real reason to be. While there, he benefits from one of the best defensive packages the game has to offer. Booming Blade and Shocking Grasp are at least equal to Battlemaster Maneuvers (and can be used at will!). The only real weakness the 'singer has is...2 less hit points per level than the Fighter (and an additional -2 at level 1; actual numbers will vary based on Constitution). Which the Wizard class already tends to trivialize in a lot of ways.

And, on top of all of this, the Bladesinger can always fall back to...being a Wizard. IMO, the real weakness of the Bladesinger is that you have to be an Elf! Imagine if we could get Genasi or Tieflings in on this action...

The real problem here isn't the Bladesinger's design. It's just some of the system's sacred cows running around in the china shop again. Magic is just better, and having more magic is better than anything else, because there are no real rules on what Magic can and can't do in D&D. Anything any class can do can probably be replicated magically, and magic can do things nothing else in the system can do.

The argument is being made that a Bladesinger will burn all of his spells to replicate being a Fighter. The problem with that argument is that we're not saying the Bladesinger can't do it, or can't be effective at it- we're saying it's a poor use of the Bladesinger's spells!

In other words, we're looking at Thor mixing it up in melee and saying "Hey, cut that out- we have a Hulk for that! You should be flying around and shooting lightning at things!".

This has mostly been my position from the beginning. The BS's buffs are really good outside of melee and the survivability is a big boon to the wizard. The BS does not have to melee (it's not built in like the barbarian rage where if you don't attack you stop raging). Forgetting melee, it's a strong tradition.

It's just that upon investigation and testing, the BS is quite good in melee TOO, much better than I initially thought. That's where it gets a bit much.

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[Mephista]

Yeeseash. 21 pages of theorycrafting. I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that this entire thread is kinda driving me crazy. I feel like everyone in here talking has no experience actually playing a blade singer.

Elves are my second favorite race after tieflings, so let me give you some feedback from my game involving a bladesinger.
8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Wis, 16 Int, 10 Cha.
Bladesinger 7 (game end)
Warcaster Feat taken at level 4
Cantrips: Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade, Firebolt, Prestigitation, Shocking Grasp
Spells: Mage Armor, Shield, Charm Person, Absorb Elements, Detect Magic, Featherfall, Jump, Sleep, Invisibility, Misty Step, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, Spider Climb, Haste, Counterspell, Tiny Hut, Fire Shield.
Equipment: Two short swords (+1)*, Elven Chain, Boots of Elvenkind, Cloak of Elvenkind

*technically, this was a short sword moonblade that could split in two, but as the character was the first to use it, it had one rune, and thus was only good as a +1 weapon. Items traits are Elven (half weight), Symbol of Power (newly risen noble house in elf kingdom), Conscientious and Muttering (had the elven queen's personality and nitpicked. A lot).

So, here's how things worked. Early on, I would need to start off by casting Mage Armor every day. This was basically a given until I got the Elven Chain, which made the rest moot. That said? I don't think it really can be understated how much a wizard in mele needs to devote to using Shield spells. And I always tried to keep a Misty step in reserve. I had a terrible, terrible Str save. If I got restrianed, blown away, or knocked down, it could be the end. So, I needed to do my best to have backup spells to prevent that from happening. In time, Haste replaced any knock back, but I still kept Misty Step, because being Restrianed would be game over otherwise. In my opinion, if you don't have that much, you're FUBAR.

Most of the other low level spells known were devoted to exploration things. With low Strength, again, I needed spells to get past jumping challenges or climbing challenges that wouldn't risk the party. I had to be very careful with each spell, however. Each spell used meant that much of a chance that someone will actually hit me and end me. I needed to be very careful or I would die. Early levels are terrifying; you never know if you need to save your resources for now, or later. There was more than once the group grumbled about needing to help the weak elf somewhere. That said, my Dex and stealth training meant I could scout pretty well; not as good as a rogue, but good enough.

Once we hit level 4, things got easier. I got Warcaster, and had enough HP that I felt that I could survive a few lucky hits, and even if I did get hit, we had a Lore Bard with Healing Word to get me back up in an emergency. I could go up to the front line with confidence, survive with the help of Shield, and do decent damage. Warcaster let me equip two shortswords now - Bladesingers can't use shields, large weapons, but I could use two swords with ease. Most of the time anyways. The damage boost was slight, but I had my bonus action free most of the time, and I just couldn't see a reason to NOT do it. If someone tried to slip past me, I could use my Reaction to smack them with Booming Blade for a fair amount of damage, and they had to freeze, or take more damage. Now, this actually made me be a fairly good tank - slipping past just wasn't a viable answer anymore because of the significant damage ignoring me.

Level 5 came, and with it another game changing level. I got Haste. Double speed, another attack, +2 AC, advantage on Dex saves. This became my new "must keep up" friend. Level 6 was huge as well - Extra Attack. At this point, I had four attacks with Haste up (and lots of Concentration bonuses), 21 AC, shield spells prepped. I was hard to hit, and could do some very good damage.

At level 7, I took Fire Shield, and ended up using it for the final big boss battle. Turns out that when you're obviously on fire, the boss doesn't want to hit you anymore, and ends up attacking others, or relying on ranged attacks. Probably not the best move for a front line melee.


So, all in all, here's the results of the game. I was good at being a front line warrior. I had good AC, I had good damage output. I could scout decently well, and i saved a few low level spells to be able to make up for my lack of Strength. That said? With all this magic devoted to being melee and scouting? There was no chance in hell I could "wizard" like an Evoker could. Fireball? Fly? Ha. My magic was devoted to keeping me alive and not as dead weight when exploring a ruin. With my magic items and familiar, I made a decent scout as well. Again, not as good as a ranger or rogue, but I could hold my own. But that left absolutely no room to buff or protect other PCs.

Could I have just gone regular back row caster? Well, I suppose I could have, but I don't see the point. Without Shape Spell, I would have hit our clustered party with our evocations. I had to be careful on what I could cast. I could have been casting more spells like Hold Person, but on the other hand, the times when I had to retreat from the front lines, there tended to be more monsters slipping past the front lines to attack the back. Sure, bladesong protects against worst case scenarios, but those scenarios came up more often than if I had taken a different subclass. The idea that I can both melee it up as well as wizard it out is patiently ridiculous. Too much of my magic is spent making sure I stay relevant on the front lines and exploring - and even then, I don't think I was stronger than our Fighter who was using a halberd and Polearm Mastery. While I got my share of people with Warcaster, Polearm Mastery easily hit more often with their reaction that I got a chance to, and their bonus action attack added their Str in. I forgot what else they took - by end game, they were clearly better than I in raw damage dealing, and it would have likely gotten worse at level 8 unless I found some measure to take.

All in all, the I felt that my magic basically let me become a sort-of rogue or ranger. I basically had to devote all my resources to acting in the role of a melee rogue, and there was no time or energy for anything else. No, I was slightly worse, since I could just keep up with combat and exploring, but I couldn't do anything other than basic scouting - no survival, no thievery. A blast to play, but I felt like I occupied this niche of just barely keeping my head afloat, and things would fall apart at any time. I also felt like I had all but reached the extent of my abilities. From level 5 spells on through level 8 have not much to help out my character; it wasn't until level 9 that I had another spell to help me melee it out. That's problematic.