D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

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The second confound (as far as tanking anyway), the BS is so hard to hit that the HGs, even with their limited INT, will realize after the first or seconf round, (assuming they didn't get lucky and splat the BS) that they should target the rest of the party Instead. This is much less likely with the barbarian or the champion because, on them, their blows are having a visible effect.

So initial analysis, the BS will do well for himself barring bad luck, but I still maintain the barb is a better tank because they will draw fire MUCH better.

I don't believe that Barb does draw fire better. I mean, this really relies on whether we think halving damage is less noticeable than not being hit, but also, BS uses Booming Blade so they take damage if they move. That sounds like a wash to me.

They can't close with Archer or Rogue at all, unless the party has somehow met Giants in a tiny room. (I'm using an encounter from SKT, out in the open, and using the DM's Shield recommended dice rolls for starting distance.)

Their best bet is to go for the Cleric. This is also true with Barb as their damage is halved against Barb and Barb has nothing special to punish them for ignoring it and going for the Cleric. One option is Cleric casts Sanctuary... DC 15, their Wisdom save is -1. Doesn't take concentration so can be used with Warding Bond and Shield of Faith.

 

[Mort]

I don't believe that Barb does draw fire better. I mean, this really relies on whether we think halving damage is less noticeable than not being hit, but also, BS uses Booming Blade so they take damage if they move. That sounds like a wash to me.

Halving damage is definitely still getting hit, even dumb monsters should know they're doing some damage vs. no damage.

Booming Blade is interesting, not sure the small amount of damage would endduce being stationary, particularly if the HG is looking for a better target.

They can't close with Archer or Rogue at all, unless the party has somehow met Giants in a tiny room. (I'm using an encounter from SKT, out in the open, and using the DM's Shield recommended dice rolls for starting distance.)

Keep in mind the HGs will /should have a bag of rocks to throw. It means not two attacks but the damage is significant and could put a big hamper on ranged attackers. This is one reason, painful as it might be, it's strategically sound for a tank to close with the HGs (imposing disadvantage on their rocks)

Their best bet is to go for the Cleric. This is also true with Barb as their damage is halved against Barb and Barb has nothing special to punish them for ignoring it and going for the Cleric. One option is Cleric casts Sanctuary... DC 15, their Wisdom save is -1. Doesn't take concentration so can be used with Warding Bond and Shield of Faith.

That's a decent option for the cleric, but as the cleric is likely to be support the HGs would go for the target hurting them more as in the barb or maybe the Rogue. Also depends what the mage is doing.

More than anything, I hadn't considered the BS casting blur. With this one second level spell the BS is very hard to hit and, much more importantly, very, very difficult to crit (1 in 400 - ack!). This means you need to bypass the AC entirely to slow the BS down and the HGs can't do that!

The only saving grace here is that the stats required are quite high, still they are not ludicrously uncommon and lower stats just mean a slightly better chance against the BS not that the tactics listed don't work. .

I'll concede the BS is much better at melee than I would have expected, and your original point, that the champion is simply outclassed, seems to hold.



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[Ovinomancer]

Halving damage is definitely still getting hit, even dumb monsters should know they're doing some damage vs. no damage.

Booming Blade is interesting, not sure the small amount of damage would endduce being stationary, particularly if the HG is looking for a better target.



Keep in mind the HGs will /should have a bag of rocks to throw. It means not two attacks but the damage is significant and could put a big hamper on ranged attackers. This is one reason, painful as it might be, it's strategically sound for a tank to close with the HGs (imposing disadvantage on their rocks)



That's a decent option for the cleric, but as the cleric is likely to be support the HGs would go for the target hurting them more as in the barb or maybe the Rogue. Also depends what the mage is doing.

More than anything, I hadn't considered the BS casting blur. With this one second level spell the BS is very hard to hit and, much more importantly, very, very difficult to crit (1 in 400 - ack!). This means you need to bypass the AC entirely to slow the BS down and the HGs can't do that!

The only saving grace here is that the stats required are quite high, still they are not ludicrously uncommon and lower stats just mean a slightly better chance against the BS not that the tactics listed don't work. .

I'll concede the BS is much better at melee than I would have expected, and your original point, that the champion is simply outclassed, seems to hold.



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Yes, blur is nice, but how many spells is the BS burning to be survivable in combat? Haste? Blur? Running low on slots after a few fights. And, to be that awesome at a job the wizard isn't meant to do, it seems in line with the resource expenditure. Every blur is not a levitate. Every haste is not a fireball.

This is why I say the bladesinger can be a poor fighter or a wizard, but not both. Every choice they make to maintain survivability in combat is one that they cannot use to be a wizard.

 

[Mort]

Yes, blur is nice, but how many spells is the BS burning to be survivable in combat? Haste? Blur? Running low on slots after a few fights. And, to be that awesome at a job the wizard isn't meant to do, it seems in line with the resource expenditure. Every blur is not a levitate. Every haste is not a fireball.

This is why I say the bladesinger can be a poor fighter or a wizard, but not both. Every choice they make to maintain survivability in combat is one that they cannot use to be a wizard.

The only spell the BS needs for the combat is Blur (can't have blur and haste up at the same time anyway) - so one.

Not counting cantina, of course, but they're not a fungible resource.

May burn a few shields, more than a few in a "hard" fight like the one but what mage doesn't burn through a bunch of spells in a big fight?

Point is, I don't think the BS is burning through any more spells than a mage would otherwise.



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[Mort]

Yes, blur is nice, but how many spells is the BS burning to be survivable in combat? Haste? Blur? Running low on slots after a few fights. And, to be that awesome at a job the wizard isn't meant to do, it seems in line with the resource expenditure. Every blur is not a levitate. Every haste is not a fireball.

This is why I say the bladesinger can be a poor fighter or a wizard, but not both. Every choice they make to maintain survivability in combat is one that they cannot use to be a wizard.

To answer your question another way:

The melee competence is just another bit of versatility. The BS is not a poor fighter, he's an good one, when needed, just the fact that he can hang in melee with Hill Giants as well as a barbarian shows that.

He's also a good wizard when needed, he doesn't have some nice benefits other traditions have, but he's a full caster as good as any other. Plus, forget melee, the survivability boost added by the BS powers is significant.

I just don't think you can argue it's anything but an extremely strong tradition.

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[clearstream]

Yes, blur is nice, but how many spells is the BS burning to be survivable in combat? Haste? Blur? Running low on slots after a few fights. And, to be that awesome at a job the wizard isn't meant to do, it seems in line with the resource expenditure. Every blur is not a levitate. Every haste is not a fireball.

This is why I say the bladesinger can be a poor fighter or a wizard, but not both. Every choice they make to maintain survivability in combat is one that they cannot use to be a wizard.

[Edit: retracted wording that simply asks to get your back up!] Please run the combat so that you see it in action. Bladesinger is not running Haste. A cast of Mage Armor (1st level) at the start of the day, and a cast of Blur (2nd level) at the beginning of combat looks like enough. With Shield (1st level) in reserve.

There are no critical hits (1:400) and with one cast of Warding Bond (2nd level, +1 AC, Resistance) the BS' AC 21 is easily sufficient (4:25). Bladesinger is a great fighter - a better tank than Bearbarian or Champion - and a fully fledged Wizard. Also I note the efficiency of not taking damage, in letting Cleric do more.

The total resources I found consumed at the end of @Mort's "hard" test fight were

BS = 1x 1st level slot + 1x 2nd level slot + 1x Bladesong
Life Cleric = 1x Warding Bond
Battlemaster Archer = 4x Arrows
Arcane Trickster = 4x Arrows + 1x 1st level slot

BS got in nearly 60 damage from a combination of Booming Blade on hits, Booming Blade on moves, and Reactions on Giant breaking contact. Total damage done by the two Giants was 12 to BS / 11 to Cleric*. If the party felt they needed it, then one cast of Cure Wounds would restore 10-18 of that total.



*BS could have cast Shield (meaning Giants did 0 damage), but due to Warding Bond decided it was fine just to take the damage. In hindsight, a Shield cast was probably merited.

 

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Halving damage is definitely still getting hit, even dumb monsters should know they're doing some damage vs. no damage.

Booming Blade is interesting, not sure the small amount of damage would endduce being stationary, particularly if the HG is looking for a better target.

I agree, but if HG is doing that it is potentially taking 6d8+8 per turn (3d8+4 for BS attack, 2d8 for moving, 1d8+4 for AoO). That's starting to look like Fireball damage, in one round, using a cantrip. Or HG does what BS wants it to do and stays and fights.

Keep in mind the HGs will /should have a bag of rocks to throw. It means not two attacks but the damage is significant and could put a big hamper on ranged attackers. This is one reason, painful as it might be, it's strategically sound for a tank to close with the HGs (imposing disadvantage on their rocks)

Yes, I tried that and noticed the same thing. HG either moves away (BB and AoO damage) or stays put and throws with Disadvantage.

That's a decent option for the cleric, but as the cleric is likely to be support the HGs would go for the target hurting them more as in the barb or maybe the Rogue. Also depends what the mage is doing.

I tried making the giants run at the Cleric, but she easily kited away and Dodged. Meanwhile, breaking contact with BS and moving under BB inflicted a lot of damage on them.

More than anything, I hadn't considered the BS casting blur. With this one second level spell the BS is very hard to hit and, much more importantly, very, very difficult to crit (1 in 400 - ack!). This means you need to bypass the AC entirely to slow the BS down and the HGs can't do that!

The only saving grace here is that the stats required are quite high, still they are not ludicrously uncommon and lower stats just mean a slightly better chance against the BS not that the tactics listed don't work.

The average array for 4d6 drop lowest = 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9
The Bladesinger I'm criticising has 1 point better = 16, 15, 13, 12, 10, 9

I'll concede the BS is much better at melee than I would have expected, and your original point, that the champion is simply outclassed, seems to hold.

That's appreciated given how much - "this is fine" - I have received in this thread. I hope you might also be okay with an assertion that BS is even better against numerous lower CR foes (still at "hard" threshold of course). Green-Flame Blade is strong against them, and their worse accuracy and lower damage means they can barely touch BS.

 

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@Mort @Ovinomancer

I ran the Hill Giants fight again with three Hill Giants (making it Super-Deadly). I had the Giants ignoring the singing High Elf that they could not hit, and throwing rocks at and running at other characters; except where BS was planted in front of them and hitting them while others were too far away to be engaged.

Resources expended
BS = Mage Armor (1st) + Blur (2nd) + Shield + Booming Blade (cantrip) to make its presence felt. Took 19 HP damage (all discretionary, could have used Shield again).
Cleric = Warding Bond (2nd) + Sanctuary (1st) + Healing Word twice (1st, 1st). Took 11 HP damage.
Archer = 16 arrows + 2 superiority dice. Took 21 HP damage.
Arcane Trickster = 6 arrows + Longstrider (1st). Took 24 damage.

With Booming Blade BS did a decent job of controlling the Hill Giants - punishing them for any attempt to move away - and for me the statement "Let's use the Wizard to melee tank!" is... well, it's bad design. It overshadows martial's too heavily. And it's still a full Wizard! Possibly the only Arcane Tradition that competes is Divination with Portent, but Portent is 2 per long rest and doesn't really overshadow anyone. (I feel like Evocation doesn't strongly compete, because they'll burn through their spell slots faster. BS is efficient - Mage Armor runs 8 hours, Warding Bond runs 1 hour, Booming Blade is free, against most encounters you won't use Shield.)

I wanted to post my FG logs here but I'm not sure how to get them out without copying a line at a time into a text file.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The only spell the BS needs for the combat is Blur (can't have blur and haste up at the same time anyway) - so one.

Not counting cantina, of course, but they're not a fungible resource.

May burn a few shields, more than a few in a "hard" fight like the one but what mage doesn't burn through a bunch of spells in a big fight?

Point is, I don't think the BS is burning through any more spells than a mage would otherwise.



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In that one fight. The bladesinger's day isn't over with that one fight. The next batch of hill giants needs spells as well. And the next. Every time without fail tge bladesinger needs those slots. So much so that the bladesinger will be hording those spots in case there's a fight. those spots that could be used for wizardry things are on standby for combats, so the bladesinger isn't doing the wizardy things with those slots even out of combat.

Shine bright for a few fights a day? Done, but at what cost? This is what you're totally faulting you grasp about the bladesinger. So much so that you've hand-waved the critical vulnerability away by expending even more resources into acting the fighter.

 

[clearstream]

In that one fight. The bladesinger's day isn't over with that one fight. The next batch of hill giants needs spells as well. And the next. Every time without fail tge bladesinger needs those slots. So much so that the bladesinger will be hording those spots in case there's a fight. those spots that could be used for wizardry things are on standby for combats, so the bladesinger isn't doing the wizardy things with those slots even out of combat.

Shine bright for a few fights a day? Done, but at what cost? This is what you're totally faulting you grasp about the bladesinger. So much so that you've hand-waved the critical vulnerability away by expending even more resources into acting the fighter.

I don't understand your argument here. You saw that BS used Mage Armor - it runs all day - one cast of a 2nd level spell, and one cast of a 1st level spell. It has 2/2/3 casts remaining + Arcane Recovery. That was at a Super-Deadly encounter! How many Super-Deadly encounters are you envisioning per day? What spells do you think another Arcane Tradition is contributing in that fight, that are so much more efficient?