D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

Wizards have sucky single target damage spells. All your wizard impressive DPR numbers assumed using spells that hit multiple foes. A wizard is almost guaranteed to kill a single target slower than a fighter.
The above said, I should add that definitely, that's where I feel a very important part of the game balance lies. It's okay that GWM does a less damage than caster, because caster damage is spread. Nowhere in this thread have I raised a criticism of BS melee damage output.

I'm planning on representing the difference by some kind of scaling modifier on AoE damage. If we assert "AoE damage has less value than single-target damage, point for point" for insert-reasons-here, then we might say something like ~1000/day of the caster damage being AoE is really worth insert-modified-value-here and everything maps neatly to your statement.
 

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In the latter parts of this thread, I've seen the word tanking used more and more. With the assertion coming up that the BS is good at tanking (not just in melee).

The tank is a very specific role: it draws fire to itself to allow other party members more time /room to do their thing. This means, somewhat counterintuitively, the tank needs a good but not great AC.

The BS's, defining characteristic, the very high AC at low level, is not suited to this role. Monsters will quickly realize that hitting it is just too tough and will instead go for easier targets thereby defeating the whole purpose of the BS trying to tank.



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The above said, I should add that definitely, that's where I feel a very important part of the game balance lies. It's okay that GWM does a less damage than caster, because caster damage is spread. Nowhere in this thread have I raised a criticism of BS melee damage output.

I'm planning on representing the difference by some kind of scaling modifier on AoE damage. If we assert "AoE damage has less value than single-target damage, point for point" for insert-reasons-here, then we might say something like ~1000/day of the caster damage being AoE is really worth insert-modified-value-here and everything maps neatly to your statement.

I think it depends on the circumstances and situation too much. I don't think you are going to be able to get it down to the point where you say in general we should use number X for the modified damage value. This can easily be seen by looking at a wizard using a fireball on 6 enemies that only have 10ish hp each. He kills them all. The fighter may kill 3-4 of them if he actions surges but that's still 2 left and he may have done the same damage as the wizards fireball did. Likewise against a 100 hp enemy the wizard will be lucky to take off a third off 1/4 of its hp each round. Some fighters will kill that enemy in 1-2 turns.

So as you can already begin to see, sometimes aoe damage is worth more than single target (it's rare but happens) and sometimes (most of the time) single target is worth more than aoe. The number you need for fighting 2 enemies is going to change when you look at fighting 4 enemies etc.
 

Levitate + heavy crossbow. Safe, effective, makes 9/10 foes completely helpless. (Exaggerating mildly for effect, but you see my point I'm sure.)

Problem 1: this has nothing to do with being a BS, the BS cannot bladesong while using this tactic.

Problem 2: The Heavy crossbow is a martial weapon, to use it with any effectiveness the wizard needs to use a feat or multi-class.

Problem 3: The wizard has now made himself an easy to see, priority, squishy target - last time the wizard in my group did this (the put himself on visibly higher ground than the rest of the party part) he got pin-cushioned so fast he barely had time to blink! On the plus side, he did take a large amount of fire away from the rest of the party - so yay (of course he also came within 1 death save of dying so not sure he'd see that as a win).
 

So is it right that the main reason you judge them worse at wizardry, is the allocation of some first level spell slots to those purposes? Do you mean that judgement to apply over most of their adventuring career? Say those slots weren't important for the majority of their career, would that change anything? Imagine that wizards other than BS also used those slots for identical purposes, would that change anything?


Okay let's look at some numbers, we're assuming a 5 round fight with 2 attacks (Multiattack) every round, +5 attack against AC 22. Due to Shield, by far the most likely way the CR 4 foe kills the BS is the critical. That's why it has become the crux of our debate. Do you agree that over ten attacks, the cumulative probability of that critical = 1-(1-c)^r = 1-(1-.05)^10 = ~40%. (Over two combats, the cumulative probability is about 64%.)

For me, those probabilities strictly indicate that BS is likely to survive two or more combats. Any critical ends the fight so damage isn't at issue: all we need is the cumulative probability of the critical.

Either way, we agree that the BS drops about once per two combats and odds-on survives one combat 6:4. That is what I have been consistently stating all through. BS wins the combat any time they want by Levitating either themselves or the creature and filling it full of heavy crossbow bolts, but I'm charitably giving their allies a job.


You know, this is helpful because it points to another big difference in our understanding. I think you are saying that the BS behaviour is binary, right? They're a fighter, or a wizard, but never both at the same time.

That's not what I think and not what I've seen in play. BS remains a full wizard even when they're tanking with their AC 22 and Shield. They can always win by wizardry and their other benefits are important here - a big buff to Concentration, a big buff to not be grappled, a big buff to speed (when assessing speed buffs, gains are absolute, not a ratio: if X is 10' faster than Y, then Y never catches X unless X lets them).


This is fair. My key objection is that BS just as readily finishes the engagement within 5 rounds. We're being far too charitable to the CR 4 foe to assume it lasts as long as it does.

Also, I believe you are low-balling the PC output, a point I want to come back to in a minute.


I don't believe either of us is entitled to a conclusion yet because I think you've shown that we need to add another layer to our analysis.

You've asserted an asymmetry: Champion takes foe out of combat faster so is exposed to fewer attacks in return. I challenge that asymmetry because it looks to me like you low-balled other PC's contributions and didn't include options that BS has to do likewise, faster. We also need to focus on the majority of BS' career. So far I've gone along with Level 4 for a specific reason - it's probably the last level where Champion has a hope in hell of being better than BS - but we both know that most of an adventurer's career is spent between levels 5 and 12. I think now we do need to play fair on that front too: otherwise your arguments will always be subject to my challenge that you've cherry-picked a fraction of the adventurer's career and called it representative.

Per RAW, the expected career is about 21 days or 30 sessions 1-12, with about 4 days or 6 sessions at levels 1-4, and 17 days or 24 sessions at levels 5-12. What level do you feel is fairest to use? Also, I think I should be making the choices for the BS setup, and you those for the Champion setup, as I don't agree with some of what you chose for BS. I concede that BS can be down-powered through charitable choices; any archetype can be.

Does that all sound constructive?

Firstly, I've multiple times complained that the initial scenario you set up wasn't representative of actual play and presented a few alternatives -- all ignored. You continued referring to your initial scenario (5 rounds, BS using melee attacks, etc), so I obliged and continued using the choices you presented. Now, however, you're laying those choices at my feet and calling them absurd when a full treatment shows they are actually absurd. This is frustrating.

If you did not believe level 4 was a good choice to highlight the bladesinger, why did you pick it?

Secondly, yes, your numbers for the chance of crit over time are correct -- I had an error that propagated through and caused inflation on my spreadsheet. Using the formula would have been cleaner, but I was using cells for multiple things and just wrote a 'next round' formula and copied it over.

However, if you look at the Champion, he barely dies in the second fight. If he wins initiative, he survives. If he gets a healing for around 8 damage, he survives. The champion's fail rate is razor thin, whereas the bladesingers is fixed at the crit chance.

Thirdly, on the binary issue, yes, because it is binary. If the bladesinger runs up into melee to tank and then casts levitate, the tanking is irrelevant if the spell succeeds and deadly if the spell fails (run your crit chance for 6 rounds of combat instead of 5, as it will take another round without bladesinger engagement). Further, a wizard can do that without trying to tank, as successfully, so that's not something that's improved by bladesinging.

Also, if that's the method, then the bladesinger is burning through long rest resources to improve survival and trivialize medium encounters. At 4th, the 'singer can, at most, do this in two fights. After that, for the remaining two medium encounters to get through the adventuring day, he's tapped and now faces exactly the same math as before. It's not sustainable, even if it wins a single fight.

As to your final point, level 4 is pretty much the last level that the bladesinger maintains superiority over the champion in the tanking/melee role. To exceed the fighter at his role, the bladesinger has to act the wizard, not the fighter. You're going to show that the bladesinger outshines the fighter, but in every case you do so it will be something a non-bladesinger wizard can do as well which shows it's the wizardly bits that excel, not the bladesinger bits. Much like your use of levitate above, which has zero to do with bladesinger tanking.

Bladesingers excel at being the individually defensive wizard. All of their abilities improve their chance of survival as a wizard, but are high risk and resource intensive if used to act like the fighter. The point at which that trails off is also the point where you're obviously more effective acting a straight wizard. But they just don't have the hp pool to be a successful tank past the first tier, and even there it's risky.

Checking the average of the damage spreads in the DMG for each CR, they go up by 6/CR, while the Bladesinger hp increases by 3+CON. You've only broken even at 16 CON and have to hit 18 CON to pull ahead of the curve. This is important because that damage curve means that crits are always going to be deadly to bladesingers. Unless you're dealing with a rolled 3 18 bladesinger, you're always at the mercy of the critical for CRs equal to your level. Figure the chance of crit for the adventuring career and you'll see the downside here.

But, to circle back to your challenge, it's critical that we establish what it means to be the party tank -- that it means actually taking attacks to protect the other members of the party. If your analysis is that, by level 7 the bladesinger can just banish a foe, then we are no longer talking about the bladesinger taking the fighter's tanking shtick, we're talking about what wizards do which has already been conceded as superior to the generic fighter. So, any analysis on the tanking abilities of the bladesinger MUST revolve around the bladesinger taking the same number of attacks as the champion. If we agree there, then we can proceed. We'll find that crit chance dominates for the bladesinger, so survival rates are flat.
 

Levitate + heavy crossbow. Safe, effective, makes 9/10 foes completely helpless. (Exaggerating mildly for effect, but you see my point I'm sure.)

Actually, is a CON save, so even at 20 controlling stat, chances are usually less than 3/4 due to CON being a primary monster stat, and heavy crossbow will be at disadvantage for the bladesinger. Also, two handed, so not bladesong.


ETA: ninja'd on those last two bits.
 

Levitate + heavy crossbow. Safe, effective, makes 9/10 foes completely helpless. (Exaggerating mildly for effect, but you see my point I'm sure.)

It occurs to me that you meant "levitate the target" and then use a heavy crossbow?

While a viable tactic, this again has nothing to do with the BS - any mage can do this.

Realistically the mage will need fighter support to accomplish this, not a problem just that any teamwork exercise like this is far from OP, it's a great feature.

On a totally separate note (may actually start a different thread), when reviewing Levitate I noticed this is in the wording "...Otherwise, you can use your action to move the target, which must remain within the spell's range."

This seems intended to say that you cannot move the target out of the range of the spell (60'), but that's not what it says! it says, offhandedly to be sure, that the target must remain within the spells range. This means a total lockdown on retreat - even for the purpose of teleport etc. (no exceptions are made) - that's crazy!
 

Actually, is a CON save, so even at 20 controlling stat, chances are usually less than 3/4 due to CON being a primary monster stat, and heavy crossbow will be at disadvantage for the bladesinger. Also, two handed, so not bladesong.


ETA: ninja'd on those last two bits.
Maybe, but the naysayers are ignoring GFB and BB. Our BS dishes out plenty of damage in melee. For Levitate, it's just a matter of choosing your targets: many foes have terrible Con saves.

You put forward that it's binary, but let's look at scenarios because in play I'm not seeing anything binary happening. What level do you suggest? What foes? What allies?
 

It occurs to me that you meant "levitate the target" and then use a heavy crossbow?

While a viable tactic, this again has nothing to do with the BS - any mage can do this.
Yes, I contend BS loses nothing as caster while also being able to tank and fight. Indeed, BS can do things any mage can do.
 

Yes, I contend BS loses nothing as caster while also being able to tank and fight. Indeed, BS can do things any mage can do.

I'll agree that the BS is an excellent wizard, but it is a lousy tank and should avoid this role - that, I think, has been the opinion of most in this thread!
 

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