D&D 5E Bladesinger/arcane trickster

[Adb0782]

I have a player in one of the games I run that is convinced that his barbarian is excellent on damage. And he's pretty good. But he regularly gets out-done by the rogue. Which makes perfect sense - if one weapon class has better defenses than another, it probably doesn't also have better offense.

Please, get out of your head on the theoretical and listen to two people who have played bladesingers over an extended level range. Bladesingers are more tanky than striker when in melee, and that's okay. It's fulfilling an important role in the party. Trying to do things like kite with the mobile feat means that foes won't be wasting attacks on you and therefore you are doing less for your party. Intend to be there and get attacked.

The flip side of that is you're a full caster and your very tanky - you're not also the master of weapon damage. With your spells you will be acceptable, but trying to optimize your "decent" instead of trying to play to your strengths ends you up like that barbarian - upset when the rogue out-damages him.

i dont know what lv you are playing your campaign, but it seem weird for me that a barbarian with 2 attack, a d12 weapon, + 1 and 1/2 str, + probably 10 GWM x attack (without count that if he kill anything he have a 3rd attack, and not considering eventually brutal crit) + rage, get less damage output than a rogue with one attack and just +5 dex to add to sneak attack. Or he is very unlucky, or he is not playing a dpr barbarian, that if half orc or half elf, with the right feats, its one of the best dpr in the game.

About mobile you are probably right, indeed i writed also "(or maybe not)", but the idea in that build is to go to get the casters on the backlines before they can cast (dont need mobile feat for it that much anyway) while the paladin, barbarian, cleric and monk tank the others, its anyway an important role that with that speed bladesinger can do very well, having also proficiency in wis saving that is the most rolled saving agaist a caster and counting on things like counterspell, dispell magic etc etc he can totally make the enemy caster useless and dead in few rounds and in my opinion this is better than tank all the enemies fighters while the casters from the back keep casting or healing them. This said, i think shadow blade is good only on specifical lv of pure bladesinger (from 6 to 9 it is used but it also fight with haste and also blur + mirror image its a so strong defense, but for sure its the best weapon we have, than from 9 to 11 you probably use bigby's hand, at 11 if you have a good sword you can think to cast TT, at 13 its all up to you i suppose), while on other lv is better to cast something else with concentration and go with rapier (shortsowrd its even better in my opinion as its much easier to find magic shortswords than magic rapiers, and we need a good magic sword that add damage more than bonus to hit before lv 11) and BB, this till lv 13, where simulacrum can concentrate for you and you can easly cast SB or TT.

 

[Adb0782]

Copy all. Dropping a weapon is not supposed to use a free action. Picking it up certainly does though. But your tabole is your table.

With Shadowblade after 6th level you would have good DPR in melee (your houserule on dropping weapons notwithstanding). It is not as good as a full martial character, but probably better than a single class Rogue. One thing to be aware of is blur is a go-to spell and you can't use that with shadowblade. If you are disengaging like a Rogue though you probably do not need to though.

I would definitely not get the mobile feat, you do not get hit enough to worry about attacks of opportunity. When I was playing my bladesinger at times I would actually purposely cause attacks of opportuinity so the enemy would use their reaction and our Rogue could dash past him without getting attacked. If you are multiclassed into Rogue you can take disengage to eliminate the OA or take dash for the extra movement. Keep in mind you get extra movement when in bladesong too.

As far as spell selection here are some pointers:
1st: shield, absorb elements (I would take this as Rogue spell), grease and rituals (detect magic, find familiar, identify, comprehend languages).

2nd: blur, shadowblade, tasha's mind whip, levitate. mirror image, darkvision if you don't have it, dragon's breath. Note levitate is an awesome offensive spell for a bladesinger - Levitate a melee enemy into the air, then take out a snickers while your fighters pummel him with arrows and crossbow bolts!

3rd level: blink, fly, haste, hypnotic pattern, fear, fireball, lightning bolt

4th level: fire shield, polymorph, mordenkanen's hound

5th level: cone of cold, bigby's hand, wall of force

I think im gonna go straight bladesinger with no rogue lv honestly, when ill get lv 6 ill think about 5 lv of AT, but actually i dont think im gonna get it.
About spells: all right, but counterspell cant miss there, also considering my party (barb, paladin, rogue, cleric and druid).
Levitate i have as racial spell without use spellslot but sorry, i dont understand what you mean to do with it, my english is not that good.
Mage armor and landstriker no? they have long duration, i thought i could get good use of them.
About darkvision i dont have it as racial, i have just the 18 mt in dim light like strong light.
About Shadow Blade, do you agree with me that it use it often from lv 6 to 8, but from lv 9 he ll not use it anymore till lv 13 (maybe)?

 

[Adb0782]

Ps one other idea i got was to mix (even splitting 10/10) it with a whispers bard, for smite in practice and for jack of all trades and the bonus on counterspell. The real problem here is that he got smites "slots" regarding cha mod...and it seem really impossible to get decent cha with point buy as we have already int, dex and con...its totally MAD, but maybe for who roll stats, if they ll be lucky, this is a strong gish with EA and shadow blade and eventually he can still choose to cast bigby's hand, banishment, haste, GI and most of the support needed, + bard spells lv 5 and ful spell slots progression for SB and always ready max spell slot available per lv for counterspell, that get anyway a bonus fro jack of all trades. This guy get to a nova of 140 hp with a crit with extra attack, that is kinda good, but as i said hid Madness its really too much for be seriusly take in cosnideration.

 

[auburn2]

double post

 

[auburn2]

i dont know what lv you are playing your campaign, but it seem weird for me that a barbarian with 2 attack, a d12 weapon, + 1 and 1/2 str, + probably 10 GWM x attack (without count that if he kill anything he have a 3rd attack, and not considering eventually brutal crit) + rage, get less damage output than a rogue with one attack and just +5 dex to add to sneak attack. Or he is very unlucky, or he is not playing a dpr barbarian, that if half orc or half elf, with the right feats, its one of the best dpr in the game.

To Start with in 5E there is no +1 and 1/2 strength. If you have a house rule that does that, that is a big deal and would sway everything towards characters with two-handed weapons.

It does depend on the game though. Posters here say their Rogue gets SA every turn. If a Rogue can sneak attack every single turn he is going to outrun a Barbarian or Ranger in damage (but not an optimized fighter or Paladin using smite). If it is harder to sneak attack at your table than he won't. In my games most Rogues only get to SA about 70% of the time unless they are a swashbuckler. That will make a big difference.

A single-class rogue is getting +3.5 DMG for every 2 levels if he lands his SA and he is going to attack with advantage a lot. A Rogue with sharpshooter he can shoot at anything within 320ft without disadvantage and without cover, gets a d8 and can get a +10 damage if AC is weak. If he has heavy crossbow proficiency he can make that 400ft and a d10. The assasin subclass will often crit on the first attack of combat.

 

[auburn2]

I think im gonna go straight bladesinger with no rogue lv honestly, when ill get lv 6 ill think about 5 lv of AT, but actually i dont think im gonna get it.
About spells: all right, but counterspell cant miss there, also considering my party (barb, paladin, rogue, cleric and druid).
Levitate i have as racial spell without use spellslot but sorry, i dont understand what you mean to do with it, my english is not that good.
Mage armor and landstriker no? they have long duration, i thought i could get good use of them.
About darkvision i dont have it as racial, i have just the 18 mt in dim light like strong light.
About Shadow Blade, do you agree with me that it use it often from lv 6 to 8, but from lv 9 he ll not use it anymore till lv 13 (maybe)?

You can use levitate on an enemy. If you levitate them off the ground they can't move unless they can fly. If they have no missile weapons then they can't attack either. They just float there and your party shoots them with bows and crossbows.

I made a joke. Snickers is candy in the USA there is a commercial "time to have a snickers" which is like time to take a break for coffee or tea. So it was a joke - the bladesinger casts levitate. The enemy can't do anything and the bladesinger just relaxes while the party shoots bows and arrows at the enemy.

If you have 18m in dim light like strong light then you should also have 18m in darkness like dim light. If that is the case you have darkvision.

I use blur more than shadowblade at all levels. Blur is a must have for the way I played.

 

[jgsugden]

...It does depend on the game though. Posters here say their Rogue gets SA every turn. If a Rogue can sneak attack every single turn he is going to outrun a Barbarian or Ranger in damage (but not an optimized fighter or Paladin using smite). If it is harder to sneak attack at your table than he won't. In my games most Rogues only get to SA about 70% of the time unless they are a swashbuckler. That will make a big difference...

Can you elaborate on why you think so? For example, around 5th level, when a GWM barbarian is attacking 2/rd with advantage at between +1 and +3 for 2d6 + (15 to 17), I do not see the rogue keeping up with that 22 to 48 damage (unless they get a bonus action attack after a crit / takedown), in which case 66 to 72?

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Ps one other idea i got was to mix (even splitting 10/10) it with a whispers bard, for smite in practice and for jack of all trades and the bonus on counterspell. The real problem here is that he got smites "slots" regarding cha mod...and it seem really impossible to get decent cha with point buy as we have already int, dex and con...its totally MAD, but maybe for who roll stats, if they ll be lucky, this is a strong gish with EA and shadow blade and eventually he can still choose to cast bigby's hand, banishment, haste, GI and most of the support needed, + bard spells lv 5 and ful spell slots progression for SB and always ready max spell slot available per lv for counterspell, that get anyway a bonus fro jack of all trades. This guy get to a nova of 140 hp with a crit with extra attack, that is kinda good, but as i said hid Madness its really too much for be seriusly take in cosnideration.

Spellcasters with dips (generally 3 levels or less) in a second class can be awesome, but spellcasters even split are usually a bad idea in 5e unless there is something really specific you are trying to achieve.

Bards are awesome, but you'll achieve most of what you get out of it with a 3 level dip. Consider 5 if you want to use an inspiration based feature a lot, because that makes you recover them on short rests and upgrades the dice. If it was Lore Bard the level 6 feature would be hard to resist at that point, but with Whisper Bard I wouldn't bother.

Anyway, I wouldn't bother with it just for the psychic blades. But Bard also unlocks some cool spells you don't get as a Wizard (Healing Word, Fairy Fire, Heat Metal) and, as you mentioned, Jack of all Trades is awesome. It is worth noting that it is just a +1 until level 9 when it becomes a +2, so it is one of those low-level features that it often makes sense to grab with a multiclass later.

Personally for a Bladesinger I'd probably pick Sword Bard instead of Whisper, as they also get fighting styles which apply every round rather than just when you spend inspiration dice, because the mobile and defensive flourishes can result in the occasional free disengage or improved shield, and because they get 10 feet extra movement anytime they take the attack action, which for a Bladesinger means that when you can't quite reach the enemy you can take the attack action with a cantrip to get the extra movement. But yes, you'll squeeze a bit more damage out of Whisper Bard and if you save those inspirations for a crit it will be awesome.

Alternatively I'd lean into being a more typical Wizard and go Lore or Eloquence to debuff enemy saving throws.

 

[Adb0782]

To Start with in 5E there is no +1 and 1/2 strength. If you have a house rule that does that, that is a big deal and would sway everything towards characters with two-handed weapons.

It does depend on the game though. Posters here say their Rogue gets SA every turn. If a Rogue can sneak attack every single turn he is going to outrun a Barbarian or Ranger in damage (but not an optimized fighter or Paladin using smite). If it is harder to sneak attack at your table than he won't. In my games most Rogues only get to SA about 70% of the time unless they are a swashbuckler. That will make a big difference.

A single-class rogue is getting +3.5 DMG for every 2 levels if he lands his SA and he is going to attack with advantage a lot. A Rogue with sharpshooter he can shoot at anything within 320ft without disadvantage and without cover, gets a d8 and can get a +10 damage if AC is weak. If he has heavy crossbow proficiency he can make that 400ft and a d10. The assasin subclass will often crit on the first attack of combat.

but even without the 1 and 1/5 str...its still more than what a melee rogue can do (sorry, i didnt consider ranged with shapeshifter) and if it gets the racial feats of half orc or EA + rackless attack as an half elf, with brutal critical it can deal tons of damage. Anyway 5e I think is archery friendly and mostly of what you can do with a sword you can do it better with a bow (archery fighters, better if battlemaster, are awesome in 5e), but i would not understimate the dpr of a barbarian zealot, with the right race and the right feats i dont think is below the rogue, except sneak attack enter every round or to get a missunderstand about the surprised rules if we talk about assassin.

You can use levitate on an enemy. If you levitate them off the ground they can't move unless they can fly. If they have no missile weapons then they can't attack either. They just float there and your party shoots them with bows and crossbows.

I made a joke. Snickers is candy in the USA there is a commercial "time to have a snickers" which is like time to take a break for coffee or tea. So it was a joke - the bladesinger casts levitate. The enemy can't do anything and the bladesinger just relaxes while the party shoots bows and arrows at the enemy.

If you have 18m in dim light like strong light then you should also have 18m in darkness like dim light. If that is the case you have darkvision.

I use blur more than shadowblade at all levels. Blur is a must have for the way I played.

thats funny. I can try to do it but seem in my party have no archers.

Spellcasters with dips (generally 3 levels or less) in a second class can be awesome, but spellcasters even split are usually a bad idea in 5e unless there is something really specific you are trying to achieve.

Bards are awesome, but you'll achieve most of what you get out of it with a 3 level dip. Consider 5 if you want to use an inspiration based feature a lot, because that makes you recover them on short rests and upgrades the dice. If it was Lore Bard the level 6 feature would be hard to resist at that point, but with Whisper Bard I wouldn't bother.

Anyway, I wouldn't bother with it just for the psychic blades. But Bard also unlocks some cool spells you don't get as a Wizard (Healing Word, Fairy Fire, Heat Metal) and, as you mentioned, Jack of all Trades is awesome. It is worth noting that it is just a +1 until level 9 when it becomes a +2, so it is one of those low-level features that it often makes sense to grab with a multiclass later.

Personally for a Bladesinger I'd probably pick Sword Bard instead of Whisper, as they also get fighting styles which apply every round rather than just when you spend inspiration dice, because the mobile and defensive flourishes can result in the occasional free disengage or improved shield, and because they get 10 feet extra movement anytime they take the attack action, which for a Bladesinger means that when you can't quite reach the enemy you can take the attack action with a cantrip to get the extra movement. But yes, you'll squeeze a bit more damage out of Whisper Bard and if you save those inspirations for a crit it will be awesome.

Alternatively I'd lean into being a more typical Wizard and go Lore or Eloquence to debuff enemy saving throws.

Yea but the real problem of any of this build is that its impossible to set with stat buy system, except maybe bring con at 10 that can be a real, huge problem...2 use for short rest can be accetable, but with 10 con i seriusly dont know if it can work.
About whispers bard: yea it probably work much better with 5 lv dip, and in my opinion is better than dip rogue if get good stat, even if the rogue give probably more damage boost, but slots progression (that mean counterspell always at the higher lv possible and SB same) balance the thing, plus bard spells that its something i cant get anywhere else, boost to counterspell till can counter near everithing, and even without crit at hight lv he deal 10d8 + 3d6 +10 + 1d8 that its 75 (or 65 without smite as he probably wont smite without a crit) from lv 13 (at same lv my HW 11/Rogue 2 with shapeshifter and crossbow expert make something like 3d10 +1d6 + 2d8 +45 if there are at least 3 enemies, that mean a total to 75, or 2d10 +1d6 +2d8 +30 without the 3rd attack that its around 55, so i can say the damage is kinda same at this lv but HW is just half caster and this ranger make our sorceradin always mad bcs he deal (few) more dpr than her, but well, she is anyway playing a more tanky shield and board sorceradin, so no +10 and no big weapons, or she could easly overcome my HW), and before dont seem to be so bad too. It problably would be 6 BS/5 WB/ 7 BS/2 WB. It can suffer on LV 7 till 11 bcs he ll still have 2 use for long rest, but counterspell and bard spells can help to dont make regret the choice.
5 lv sword bard i also was thinking about that but it give me more defense and this guy already is almost untouchble, what he need is pure damage more than defense for be worth to delay simulacrum (and other earlier spells), otherwise better stay BS i suppose and probably better stay BS even with the damage boost.

 

[auburn2]

Can you elaborate on why you think so? For example, around 5th level, when a GWM barbarian is attacking 2/rd with advantage at between +1 and +3 for 2d6 + (15 to 17), I do not see the rogue keeping up with that 22 to 48 damage (unless they get a bonus action attack after a crit / takedown), in which case 66 to 72?

From around 5th to 10th the ogue won't do more but above 10th and below 4th the Rogue will average more .... if and only if he is getting SA every singe round.

Comparing a Barbarian with a great axe and a Rogue with a light crossbow and a Rogue with two hand crossbows here is what you have:

A 4th level Barbarian using a great axe with an 18str and using reckless attack against AC 15 will average 10.1DPR or 13.1 if he uses GWM and takes a +10. This number is amortized to account for raging in 3 out of 7 fights per day and not raging in 4 other fights.

A 4th level Rogue with an 18 Dex and a light crossbow and getting advantage against AC 15 will average 14.1DPR or 15.8DPR when taking a +10 in sharpshooter damage

A 4th level Roge with xbow expert using 2 hand xbows and getting no advantage but getting SA every turn against AC15 will average 15.7DPR

An 11th level barbarian with a great axe and an 18Str and using reckless attack against AC15 will average 24.5DPR or 33.5DPR using GWM and +10 damage. This is amortized to account for raging in 4 out of 7 fights a day and not raging in another 3 fights.

An 11th level Rogue with an 18 Dex and and a light crossbow and advantage against AC15 will average 29.4DPR and 30.0 DPR using +10 to damage.

An 11th level Rogue with 18 Dex and xbow expert using 2 hand xbows and getting no advantage but getting SA every turn against AC15 will average 30.3DPR

A few points:
1. The Rogue will use the attack action more because he does not need to close with the enemy. Like I said earlier he can shoot at anything within 320ft if he has a light xbow and sharpshooter. Most encounters start more than 40 feet away meaning there will be rounds the Barbarian does 0 damage. These no attack rounds are not considered in the math above.

2. This DOES include criticals, including both critical SA dice for the Rogue and brutal critical for the 11th level barbarian.

3. This does not consider any GWM BA attacks for the Barbarian for a critical. Those could add about 2 points DPR at 11th level and 1 point at 4th level. BA attacks after you kill someone are not considered either. These will add damage as well but this is entirely dependent on numbers and hp and not relevant to this discussion. If you are fighting a swarm of pixies you are going to get a lot of BA attacks as a GWM. If you are fighting a swarm of ancient Red Dragons there will be significantly less.

4. 15 is a middle of the road AC. At 11th level, as you increase AC this will favor the Rogue, especially the hand crossbow rogue, as you decrease AC at 11th level it will favor the Barbarian. At 4th level if you decrease AC it will favor the sharpshooter Rogue of you increase AC it will favor the hand crossbow rogue.

5. The Rogue is using a light crossbow with sharpshooter or a hand xbow with xbow expert. There are better damage options. A Rogue could also use a heavy crossbow for about .7DPR if he got proficiency in it over a light Xbow. With the hand xbow I assumed he did not have advantage but did have SA. If he had advantage it would increase damage by a lot, but I don't think that is realistic since he can not use aim and take the extra shot. I also did not consider a Rogue with both crossbow expert and sharpshooter. That would muddy the water a lot because it is 2 feats and would make a fair comparison more difficult. If you go two feats/ASIs there are so many different barbaran builds it gets complicated.

6. This assumes both the barbarian and the sharpshooter get advantage every single round. Both have an ability that gives them advantage although it is a stretch to say either will actually have advantage every single round.

7. Above 11th level the Rogue will pull further away as he adds more SA dice

8. This does not consider Assassin critical from surprise. It also does not consider frenzy for berserker barbarian. Frenzy will substantially boost the Barbarians damage for two fights a day, but after the second fight the penalty to movement and attack rolls will substantially hinder him if he does it again.

9. This assumes a 7-encounter day with the results averaged for a 4th level barbarian raging in 3 of those fights and the 11th level Barbarian raging in 4 of them. If you only want to look at the Barbarian while raging at 4th level damage will be about 1.5DPR higher and at 11th level it will be about 2DPR higher. That is not really fair though because it assumes the Barbarian is going Nova in the battle which is different than suggesting he will average more as was the original intent.

10. To make it easy I assumed an 18S/D and 1 other feat. At 4th level that is a lot. Going to a 16 which is more realistic will favor the Rogue, specifically the crossbow expert Rogue.

11. This assumes no fight lasts more than 10 rounds and the Rogue does NOT run out of ammunition.

12. If you don't think this is a fair comparison I can modify a lot of things pretty easy if you want a different setup. I would ask that it be even handed though.